The Makhaya Ntini appreciation thread

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Thats not what i'm saying yo. I'm not disagreeing that Ntini since he plays all the time has been the best fast bowler in the world over the last year at least. But Akhtar & even Bond (regardless of the fact the these two blokes are regularly injured) are slightly better than him.

How do you know if they're not playing?

Makhaya Ntini has been bowling superbly for two years now. How can you say Bond and Akhtar are better than he is if they haven't been? You can't quantify quality unless a bowler plays cricket.

 

[aussie]

I'm basing it on some destructive bowling displays that i've seen both Bond & Akhtar bowl.
For Akhtar the entire series vs England 05, his 5 fors vs AUS in the super challenge 2 series ODI in brisbane 02 & that spell in a test in sharjah in late 02 as well & we can't forget his electric performances in the 99 WC.

For bond his performances in VB series 2002, his 6 for vs Aus in the WC, 6 for vs Ind in mid 2005.

Now surely if they weren't so injury proned we could have expected much more similar performances over the years.Not trying to under-rate Ntini but the only performances Ntini has that can compare with these in either test or ODI are that spell vs Aus in Jo'burg early last year, the one vs PAK in the CT & probably the 6 for vs PAK in the recently concluded test.

Ntini is the best statistically (based on recent performances) but Akhtar & Bond are naturally just better than him.

 

[Goughy]

How do you know if they're not playing?

Makhaya Ntini has been bowling superbly for two years now. How can you say Bond and Akhtar are better than he is if they haven't been? You can't quantify quality unless a bowler plays cricket.

Agreed

The last 2 years have been a tribute to his skill and exceptional fitness.

Maybe this guy or that guy may be better but we know Ntini has been brilliant because he has stayed on the field and been an honest hardworking spearhead for his team.

Ntini is currently the best, anything else is just conjecture as they are not on the field enough to compete for the title.

 

[Richard]

All true, but i'm not sure what you show me that linked off his entire career?, the period i was refering to was from the Lord's test 2003 to the just concluded test vs PAK.

And as I say, I don't think any period started there - he didn't really bowl too well in that game.

I think that game was part of a period of considerable length where he was pretty ordinary, and there's been a more recent (still short) period where he's been top-notch.

 

[Richard]

Im not insinuating anything or accusing him of anything. The fact of the situation is that he was sentanced to 6 years in prison for rape in 1999 and was released on appeal. That is fact not insinuation. There are no rumours or any opinion there.

BTSOTs there was a good deal of rumours and opinion resulting in the conviction ITFP.

 

[Goughy]

BTSOTs there was a good deal of rumours and opinion resulting in the conviction ITFP.

Sorry, Im probably getting old but I dont understand that sentance

?

 

[Richard]

Ohhh.... Kay...

Right, BTSOTS (ie by the sounds of things) there was a lot of grey stuff in Ntini's conviction ITFP (ie in the first place).

I've seen a couple of similar things (one of my Dad's mates had something of this experience), of girls trying to get rape-convictions from guys who've done nothing more outrageous than have *** with a girl who was absolutely gunning for it... and from what I can see this was what the girl in the Ntini case was doing... but then she had a conscience-attack after he got convicted.

You ever seen a film starring Michael Douglas and Demi Moore (can't remember what it's called) about something of that sort?

 

[jot1]

to get rape-convictions from guys who've done nothing more outrageous than have *** with a girl who was absolutely gunning for it...

Ooooooh Kaaay.....Now that is an extremely provocative sentence and liable to open a HUGE can of worms.

 

[Richard]

I know that and I can only speak from experience. I know a couple of guys who've been patently falsely accused of rape, and do not know any girls who've been unfortunate enough to suffer said abuse... and I'm glad I don't, I can't imagine anything of the sort happening to any of my girl-mates...

It's hard to speak on the subject without being accused of being an apologist for guys-should-be-able-to-shag-whatever-they-want-ism... but the fact is there ARE girls out there who think nothing of exploiting the law designed to protect them and to claim otherwise is contemptible.

 

[jot1]

And men out there who find a little bit of fame and think it entitles them to take what they want from any woman, who then should be grateful, not complain.

 

[Richard]

I'm certainly not denying that either - one who has more experience of either case will likely side with the respective party.

As I say - the Ntini case seemed to me to bear several resemblences not merely to rape cases but to the countless assault\affray ones where people try to scam a bit of compensation from a famous face because they think they can.

I've not read all the court files, far from it, and if anyone knows more of the particulars of the case I'd be delighted to hear them, but from what I read about it it struck me as more likely that the accusing would be the guilty party than the accused.

And various other, more recent, character testemonies of Ntini seem to corroborate with such ideas.

 

[Langeveldt]

And men out there who find a little bit of fame and think it entitles them to take what they want from any woman, who then should be grateful, not complain.

I'm not sure how bad the situation is in South Africa (I know rape is extremely high), but in the UK there are a massive amount of women who falsely accuse rape, whether they are intoxicated or not.. Recently I think they have started sending women to prison who do such things..

I'm inclined to believe someone is innocent until they are proven guilty..

 

[jot1]

Actually, my post was not about Ntini and his case, at all. It was about the phrase "gunning for it". Words like that have been used for years all over the world to get rapists aquitted in courts, and can mean anything from wearing a short skirt or just smiling in a friendly fashion, to necking and more. The facts are, when she says no, if he doesn't stop, it's rape, and saying she was gunning for it is no excuse.
As I said, a can of worms.... better left closed.

 

[Richard]

Words like that have been used for years all over the world to get rapists aquitted in courts, and can mean anything from wearing a short skirt or just smiling in a friendly fashion, to necking and more.

I know that, too, and recent polls suggested an alarmingly large number (from both genders) thought women who did said things were "asking for it". There's a difference, though, between doing that and outright lying about the crucial final moments.

The facts are, when she says no, if he doesn't stop, it's rape, and saying she was gunning for it is no excuse.

Exactly. And there are countless millions of males out there who'd do well to learn that. Not remember. Learn. We had a series of ads of late, pretty well-produced ones, which outlined said reality.

Equally, though, how easy is it for a girl to claim "I said no" when she really said "aaahhh, yes, yes," etc.? Very. Who do you believe? It's a lottery, and character-references count for a lot.

 

[jot1]

I admit I'm a bit biased. I work at a shelter for woman a few nights a week and the fact is, 9 out of 10 men get away with it because it's her word against his and he says she didn't say no and she can't prove she did. But we see the tears and the trauma.
I think I've high-jacked this thread.
Sorry, will stop now.

 

[Richard]

Don't be sorry, there's IMO no such thing as "hijacking" threads. If people want to tribute Makhaya our little interlude won't stop them nor will it interfere.

I seem to remember reading ages ago that you worked in said environment - I might have guessed anyhow, reading your indignant response. As I said - the side of the story that you yourself have privy to is a huge influence on the way you respond to this situation. I don't doubt for a second that for every guy falsely accused of rape there are fifty that get away with it (or maybe fifty-thousand... I honestly have no clue of the figures). But my only experience has been with the former. I only have an example in my own mind of how devestating it is to be falsely accused of an heinous crime, when you thought you were doing something utterly innocent. Therefore, I will instinctively emphasise with those who appear to me to be in a similar boat. You, equally, will emphasise with the other end of the scale. There's nothing wrong with doing either.

 

[Langeveldt]

I admit I'm a bit biased. I work at a shelter for woman a few nights a week and the fact is, 9 out of 10 men get away with it because it's her word against his and he says she didn't say no and she can't prove she did. But we see the tears and the trauma.
I think I've high-jacked this thread.
Sorry, will stop now.

Yeah I'm not fussed, all I've heard about on the news are the false accusations, girls getting paid off the morning after saying they will go to the cops and fake a story.. Good to hear about "the other side of the coin"

 

[Richard]

Yeah I'm not fussed, all I've heard about on the news are the false accusations

Mate, wait until you know some guy who's in the situation, rather than just hearing about it on the news... then you'll be fussed, I tell you.

 

[Slow Love™]

I kinda understand the point Goughy is making - I guess the comments about Ntini's character should be read through the prism of what happens on the cricket field. 'Cause in reality, we all have our players who we particularly like, and not many of us actually know any of these people well as far as their lives outside cricket.

One thing I'm a bit confused by though is the description of Ntini's appeal as "shadowy" (which might have prompted shortpitched's reaction). What does that mean, exactly? I know a little about the case, and I've never heard it described in that way. Surely a bit of an insinuation?

 

[Anil]

One thing I'm a bit confused by though is the description of Ntini's appeal as "shadowy" (which might have prompted shortpitched's reaction). What does that mean, exactly? I know a little about the case, and I've never heard it described in that way. Surely a bit of an insinuation?

that is exactly what i felt when i read his post and why i asked my question about him already making up his mind....