***Official*** India in South Africa

[silentstriker]

I know what a drawn series is for India here in RSA, but we clearly have been the better team

Ummm...no we haven't. We won by 100+ runs in the first test and lost by 150+ runs in the second. In the third, we capitulated from 395-5 to 414 all out in the first innings. Hardly an emphatic performance.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Agreed, stupidity is different than courage. But courage, as Mr. Mdjfodsjfo said, should come from aggressive batting. We shouldn't go out there with a mindset of - let's play cautiously, and until we manage to get 330 we won't declare. Instead there should be a clear intent shown for a win. Go out there see off the new ball, attack, but attack smartly. I, honestly, won't be happy with a drawn series.

I think it really depends on the context of a drawn series. If India are face with some outstanding seam bowling tomorrow morning as, let's face it, they could well be, and they lose a bundle of early wickets, a drawn result would probably be welcomed. But if India throw away wickets tomorrow and then have to defend and scratch for a draw, it's a totally different situation.

In the former, the team was outclassed in the early going and fought hard to earn a drawn result. That's admirable. In the latter, the team threw away opportunities, then had to fight hard to save pride with a drawn result. If this game is to be drawn, I think there can still be merit to India. It really depends on how well South Africa plays tomorrow.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I know what a drawn series is for India here in RSA, but we clearly have been the better team and certainly deserve a better result than 1-1.

India have matched South Africa evenly in this series, given the way periods of play have swayed. The two teams have probably dominated an equal amount of sessions throughout the series. A drawn result would be far more disappointing for South Africa though. They really haven't won much in Tests lately and were expected to thrash India after doing so in the ODI series. South Africa has a lot more to account for when all is said and done, regardless of the series result.

 

[silentstriker]

As a side note...if we knew how to field properly, that 40-odd lead might be closer to 70-odd.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Because you either have no idea what an accomplishment a drawn series is for India, or don't care.

And its all right to show intent, but its smarter to just bat naturally. India's natural batting rate bar Sehwag tends to be around 2.5-2.75 runs per over.

I disagree there. There's something to be said for batting naturally, but also a team needs to know how to play to a situation. If Ponting's Australia were in this situation, they'd definitely be looking to bat positively, possibly regardless of whether or not early wickets are lost. Playing positively does not mean playing stupidly. A team's natural game should be whatever game the situation demands.

 

[Turbinator]

Ummm...no we haven't. We won by 100+ runs in the first test and lost by 150+ runs in the second. In the third, we capitulated from 395-5 to 414 all out in the first innings. Hardly an emphatic performance.

First test we won pretty covincingly, the second test, as much as I hate to cry about the umpiring and keep mentioning it, but you force me too. Had calls not gone against us, especially two calls against our best batsmen, it was a drawn match. As said already, I hate to cry about it, but let's face it, we had been a victim of horrible umpiring in the second test. It was hardly a genuine win for RSA.

This match we have also put up a better performance.

As much as you love being pessimistic, you have to face the fact that we have been the better team this series.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

As a side note...if we knew how to field properly, that 40-odd lead might be closer to 70-odd.

Baby steps.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

First test we won pretty covincingly, the second test, as much as I hate to cry about the umpiring and keep mentioning it, but you force me too. Had calls not gone against us, especially two calls against our best batsmen, it was a drawn match. As said already, I hate to cry about it, but let's face it, we had been a victim of horrible umpiring in the second test. It was hardly a genuine win for RSA.

It's hard to blame umpiring mistakes for defeat by such a heavy margin as India lost in the 2nd Test. Though time was a factor in that Test. Still, as quickly as you can say India was robbed by poor umpiring, South Africa can say they were robbed by poor light. Especially on day 3, when Smith was more than willing to bat in the dark and was not given the chance to make that decision.

 

[Turbinator]

I disagree there. There's something to be said for batting naturally, but also a team needs to know how to play to a situation. If Ponting's Australia were in this situation, they'd definitely be looking to bat positively, possibly regardless of whether or not early wickets are lost. Playing positively does not mean playing stupidly. A team's natural game should be whatever game the situation demands.

That's exactly what I've been saying, we need to bat positively. And going out there seeing how the game goes and then deciding whether to go for the win or go for the draw is not batting positively. In order to bat positively we need a plan to win that we can execute. If we fail, resort to plan B for a draw.

 

[silentstriker]

First test we won pretty covincingly, the second test, as much as I hate to cry about the umpiring and keep mentioning it, but you force me too. Had calls not gone against us, especially two calls against our best batsmen, it was a drawn match.

Doubtful.

As much as you love being pessimistic, you have to face the fact that we have been the better team this series.

Except we haven't. Even in this game, we have four or five opportunities to assert our dominance, where a better team like Australia (or even England) would no doubt have pressed home the advantage. The fact that we did not shows we have a long way to go, and are clearly not a superior team.

And the bookies still give SA better chances than IND to win the game. That should tell you something. They are unbiased, they have to make a living (though Draw is the likeliest of the three options).

 

[Turbinator]

It's hard to blame umpiring mistakes for defeat by such a heavy margin as India lost in the 2nd Test. Though time was a factor in that Test. Still, as quickly as you can say India was robbed by poor umpiring, South Africa can say they were robbed by poor light. Especially on day 3, when Smith was more than willing to bat in the dark and was not given the chance to make that decision.

Agreed, but still we have been the better team by a very small margin. Especially considering this Test and the fact that RSA have home advantage.

 

[silentstriker]

I disagree there. There's something to be said for batting naturally, but also a team needs to know how to play to a situation. If Ponting's Australia were in this situation, they'd definitely be looking to bat positively, possibly regardless of whether or not early wickets are lost. Playing positively does not mean playing stupidly. A team's natural game should be whatever game the situation demands.

I think if we can say anything emphatically, its that this team is not Ponting's Australia. I am not advocating Adelaide 5th day caution here, just that we shouldn't necessarily go out and tell our strokemakers to play shots. Put the bad ball away but watch your wicket - that's all.

 

[Turbinator]

I think if we can say anything emphatically, its that this team is not Ponting's Australia. I am not advocating Adelaide 5th day caution here, just that we shouldn't necessarily go out and tell our strokemakers to play shots. Put the bad ball away but watch your wicket - that's all.

Yup agreed, but there should be a plan in our heads which is aimed at a win.

EDIT: Also, don't go on the defensive... look to have your foot on the pedal at the same time watch the road ahead.

 

[Pratters]

They are unbiased, they have to make a living (though Draw is the likeliest of the three options).

Just a small point - bookie takes should not be taken as unbiased. They take into account the popularity bit. So, if there are millions of Indian fans who think India might win the world cup, India's odds might go from 8 to 3.5 so that the bookies do not lose a lot if India does win the world cup. That is just one of the biases.

Right now, I would personally say India has a better chance of winning it - a lead of 40, RSA to bat 4th inning, Kumble to bowl 4th innning. However, given India's poor record abroad, maybe the bookies did not want to bet too much on India. Also, I would put the draw as the most unlikely result right now. The South Africans lost 9 wickets today and the pitch is going to only deteriorate as the match progresses.

Maybe they want to take into account an equal chance that it will not deteriorate as much or maybe they want to take into account that both these teams could go for a negative approach some where down the line in the game.

Bookie quote biases is very interesting in any case and some one can make good bucks if they can decipher these biases properly.

 

[Turbinator]

I don't know if we can blame RSA losing 9 wickets on the pitch deteriorating, it was more so bad shot selection.

 

[Pratters]

I don't know if we can blame RSA losing 9 wickets on the pitch deteriorating, it was more so bad shot selection.

Fair point. Better way to put it would be - deteriorating pitch plus inconstent batting line ups of the two teams. Also, I am no expert and so was just giving possible reasons for inherent biases.

 

[Turbinator]

Also, we must remember the pressure is on RSA, they'll be criticized if we put good runs on the board and they aim for a draw. They'll be going for the win, this will most likely spark an RSA collapse.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I think if we can say anything emphatically, its that this team is not Ponting's Australia. I am not advocating Adelaide 5th day caution here, just that we shouldn't necessarily go out and tell our strokemakers to play shots. Put the bad ball away but watch your wicket - that's all.

My point is that there are lessons to be learnt from Australia. I wouldn't say the Australian cricketers are more talented than those of the rest of the world. But they excel in certain areas better than most other cricketers. The key to Australian cricket IMO is not the technical capabilities, but rather the confidence. It's almost an arrogance whereby Australia is capable of rising from almost any difficulty and achieving any task. Look at the Ashes last year. Look at how hard Australia made England fight to win the 2 Tests that they did. Consider that England was well on top of each of those Tests at one point. It's really a major difference between the teams in the present Ashes series. England have not shown the fight Australia did in the 2005 series. That's because Australia have played the game with greater confidence from the start of the series.

But I digress.

India should take a page out of the Australian textbook and adjust to the situation and play with confidence. Not stupid overconfidence, but with the belief that they can win this Test and this series. They shouldn't even be considering the possibility of a drawn result or a loss at this stage. Play naturally, but naturally adapt to the positive mindset that is needed to achieve the goal.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Agreed, but still we have been the better team by a very small margin. Especially considering this Test and the fact that RSA have home advantage.

In the sense that the Indians have played above expectations and the South Africans below expectations. In that regard, yes, India have been the better team. But in terms of the overall contest, I'd say it's been an even grind.

 

[Turbinator]

^^ Wonderfully said...