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Moving forward what type of side should England pick in ODI cricket?

Niall

International Coach
So think its safe to say a wretched effort from England, they moved the Ashes for this which they lost 5-0 and the last six months was non stop ODI preparation.

Openers

Bell isn't a spud at all, but surely enough is enough? He so often gets in and never finishes anything, and I don't see it changing it in the next 4 years. The alternatives aren't ,many sadly, I suppose they should give Hales a run and they probably will, but after that its either Roy or Vince who haven't excelled that much in this format nor for the Lions either. Ali has been hit and miss, but I'd stick with him to partner Hales.

Taylor at 3 and Root at 4 are obvious enough selections. I'd have no issue with Buttler at five either. Billings was beastly last season for Kent and while it may be no more than a purple patch, he deserves a chance soon enough. Stokes is someone whose exclusion was understandable, but I do think the talent is their and not as if a million alternatives in county cricket.
So...

5 Stokes, 6 Buttler 7 Ballance


Bowlers?

Not to sure really, Wood is worth a look. I'd be tempted to however go with Woakes, Finn, Jordan and one of Broad or Anderson.

Broad along with Morgan have been so bad in this world cup, its hard to justify keeping either. Broad probably needs to be preserved for test cricket anyway which with the Ashes on the way will be England's main priority..

What do the rest of you think when it comes to line ups for England going forward in 50 overs?
 

Antihippy

International Debutant
Just keep the young players you have now and let them play enough to gain experience instead of chopping and changing at the eve of the tournament.
 

ImpatientLime

International Regular
it seems like there's quite a few younger batsmen worth giving a shot in the summer.

billings
vince
roy
hales
stokes (in the top 6)

but fmd the bowling prospects in all formats aren't filling anyone with confidence.
 
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theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
Most of this was written before the world cup so if it doesn’t make sense in places that’s probably why.

1. Bet the house on Buttler and build the team around him. Buttler is the best we’ve got and the best chance of a really outstanding ODI bat. At present he is batting 7. That’s too low and means he only has a limited impact on the match. It’s time to move him to 5 (or maybe 4) and let him play with freedom which should allow him to influence the match. I’d also probably relieve him of the wicketkeeping duties.

2. Get rid of the dead wood and don’t look back. This was a third world cup for Ian Bell and Ravi Bopara. Neither are worthy of three world cups. Both have progressed little over their ODI career and have failed in world cups. There is no point them sticking around for a fourth.

3. Think a little unconventional. The coaching staff is lacking diversity of cultures and skills. Sourav Ganguly spoke brilliantly about ODI batting and building an innings whilst doing some television during 2014. Getting in a former international player like Ganguly as an ODI consultant who has a different perspective to Moores, Fairbace et all should offer the batsman vital guidance.

4. Multi Purpose Cricketers. Ballance who is an average fielder and doesn’t bowl has to be exceptional with the bat. Gurney offered variation with the ball but it wasn’t good enough given he couldn’t field or bat. Players need to be excellent in their main discipline or offer more than just their primary suit. Woakes and Jordan are worth persevering with in the short term at least just for this reason. Not bits and pieces cricketers though- there has to be some potential for them becoming very good at a trait.

5. Linked to the last point, fielding is the easiest of the three disciplines to get right. Past couple of years England have amassed quite a few average fielders at different stages. The likes of Morgan, Root, Taylor, Roy, Stokes, Buttler, Bairstow, Jordan are very good fielders. England need to make sure they have enough quality fielders in their team. Too many average fielders like Hales, Ballance, Cook and Ali’s leave you vulnerable.

6. Don’t worry about defeats for the first couple of years. Starting with a young bunch of players will inevitably lead to some troubles. The world cup in 4 years should be the focus. Look to go in to that world cup with a core of players who have played 60 -150 games rather than the 10 or so that a few had this time.

7. Captaincy Issue. Ideally Morgan should continue as captain as long as his world cup isn’t awful. The team needs some stability and experience. He also has been a matchwinner and player of genuine quality in the past – even in that skill has eluded him as off right now. He also only plays ODI and T20 cricket so he doesn’t need to be rested at any point which is always a complication of being captain and playing 3 formats. If he fails at the world cup England have a tough choice. I wouldn’t want to put too much pressure upon a Buttler, Root or Taylor too young when they’re still trying to find their own games in ODI cricket but if teams have worked Morgan out and he isn’t going to improve he needs to go. I’d leave him in charge for a year and make a decision then in relation to the next world cup.

8. Small squads. 12 or maybe 13 man squads at home. Give players a series at a time so that they are relaxed and know they aren’t getting dropped the next game.

9. Bowling is extremely similar at present. Need variation. Unfortunately county cricket is very poor in that regards. May be dependent on whose inform at start of the season and most of these are really inexperienced but I would be looking at Mills (extreme pace and left arm), Topley(left arm, tall and good variations), Wood(pacey and skiddy), Dunn (pacey and skiddy), Rashid(leg spin), Willey(left arm new ball and good hitter with bat), Gregory (skiddy new ball skills, lower order batting). A few others who likely come into the equation later are Miles, Morris, J+C Overton, Curran and Stone. They need to find something different although they have to bear in mind the next world cup is in England.

10. Don’t discard the statistics but players need to be able to think on their think and read a match whilst they are out there. Match conditions are ever changing- react to them. Batting is about constantly reassessing the position you are in not following some preset notion of a good score.

11. The current team lacks leadership. The likes of Root, Buttler, Taylor, Ali, Woakes, Morgan need to get together between games without the coaching staff and discuss the game and mould the kind of team they want. They need to be strong enough (and the coaching to allow them) to make decisions off the cuff without the fear of reprisal.

12. Finally, aggression but smart aggression. Going out there and trying to hit 400 every time you bat is stupid. Players and staff need to take on board the criticism but they need to be smart enough and have the convictions of their beliefs to pick up the right advice and play the style of cricket that is best suited to the players at their disposal.


This summer I’d be picking from the following
Hales, Vince, Roy, Ali, Root, Stokes, Morgan, Taylor, Billings, Buttler, Bairstow, Jordan,Woakes, Gregory,Willey, Wood, Dunn, Mills, Topley, Finn, Rashid, Tredwell

They’ll lose a lot at first but the batting has enough potential to at least be capable fairly soon – and could be very good down the line. The bowling is weak and some of those listed are average and inexperienced at present but they’re the best we’ve got. Anderson and Broad shouldn’t play this year with all the test cricket they’ve got and indifferent form at the world cup. A year down the line we can look at their fitness levels and the performance of the bowlers over the year and make the decision with regards to the 2019 world cup.

2019 CWC – Lees, Roy, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Morgan, Billings, Willey, Wood, Mills, spinner
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
But basically I'll be fairly happy if we never see Bell and Bopara in the team again.

OK actually give Bopara a sendoff by letting him play against Afghanistan.

Not bad people or without talent as batsmen just haven't progressed enough as players through their ODI careers and seem to be constantly under pressure from the scorecard and unable to perform when it matters.
 

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
England - Who Goes and Who Stays?

I guess in a couple of hours we should make a "Where to now" kinda thread
Few more than a couple but here goes I guess.

So I was just thinking out of England's current squad of 15, who are the people to stick with going forward and who are the people to bin now? Quite a lot is in the air really.

Locks
Moeen Ali - Generally been a really good all-rounder for England in the last year. Not completely sold on him opening but he's clearly in England's best XI in some form or the other.
Joe Root - Quality young batsman across all formats. Already has as many tons as Ian Bell despite batting lower.
Jos Buttler - High quality player, and higher potential. Already an accomplished finisher, strong case to be made that he should bat higher up and have a greater role in the team.

Likely keeps
Alex Hales - Not really been given a long crack of the whip yet. Will probably get it post world cup based on T20I form and domestic stuff last season.
James Taylor - Showed enough promise, if not quite nailing it yet.
Chris Woakes - Was a bit disappointed with his world cup, but he's a solid cricketer still with room for improvement. Should stick around.
Chris Jordan - See other Chris I guess. Won't be giving NZ and Aus sleepless nights when they come over in a few months but could be a decent English cricket in the next few years.
Stuart Broad - Would put him as a lock but people are being annoying about Broad again. Our best test bowler last four years will still be in the ODI picture for a while regardless of his poorer performances in the format the last couple of years.
Steven Finn - England have invested way too much to give up now. And we know how good he can be in the format so it'll probably be the right call.

Maybes
Ian Bell - Didn't have a bad World Cup, but didn't really properly do it either in his third attempt. England might move on.
Eoin Morgan - World Cups are often watershed moments for captains and established names but this is weird because he was announced ODI skipper less than three months ago. Had he been captain for a while I'd think he's definitely gone, so the recent appointment might save him. Conversely, I don't see how they could sack him as captain and keep him in the side, so if they decide to invest in Root or Buttler as captain he'll probably go.
Gary Ballance - Was genuinely awful this tourney. Clearly in their plans for both formats and that won't change based on four games, but still has convincing to do in the format. Might not make first new squads but will probably come again.
James Anderson - Similar to Bell really. Still think he's excellent but England/the player himself, may decide to call it quits.
James Tredwell - Can't fault his performances, but he turned 33 a couple weeks back and England may decide he no longer fits the bill.

Farewell
Ravi Bopara - :(

Someone else can do the "who to bring in" thing, because I didn't really follow county cricket enough last season. Stokes and Billings the obvious ones I guess. CBF with Roy.

Most would probably have more farewells and less likely keeps I guess? I'm probably a bit more conservative than others when it comes to this stuff.

Just rambling really.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Have to be lenient on Taylor tbh given that he's no reasonable person's idea of an ODI #6 (but, as we saw before, a competent #3).

And for christ's sake, stop batting Buttler at 7.

Ballance - get rid of that awful trigger movement which clearly doesn't look natural and we'll talk.
 

Niall

International Coach
But basically I'll be fairly happy if we never see Bell and Bopara in the team again.

OK actually give Bopara a sendoff by letting him play against Afghanistan.

Not bad people or without talent as batsmen just haven't progressed enough as players through their ODI careers and seem to be constantly under pressure from the scorecard and unable to perform when it matters.


Agreed.

Have you revised your opinion of Morgan at all?

I don't think he should be banished yet, but without sounding melodramatic apart from Dwayne Smith and I am grasping here, Jamshed, he has beenn the biggest flop of the world cup for me.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Like seriously, whose idea was it to put Taylor at 6 because they should be fired immediately.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
Ali and Stokes (neither of whom I'm convinced about) are going to probably get plenty of chances to progress as they are the only two players in english cricket who are really capable of batting in the top 6 and being a reasonable bowling option.

This issue is worsened by the fact that Root is the only potential batsman who offers any kind of occasional bowler potential.

They could maybe look at Willey 7, Woakes 8 if Ali or Stokes aren't playing.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
Agreed.

Have you revised your opinion of Morgan at all?

I don't think he should be banished yet, but without sounding melodramatic apart from Dwayne Smith and I am grasping here, Jamshed, he has beenn the biggest flop of the world cup for me.
It's a pretty tough decision. He hasn't being good for a while. But I really wouldn't want to burden Root or Buttler with it yet as they play all 3 formats and are still fairly inexperienced.

He also isn't a particularly good captain.

The problem is apart from Buttler and Root you'd don't really have any guarantees in the lineup. I'd maybe give to Taylor.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
Like seriously, whose idea was it to put Taylor at 6 because they should be fired immediately.
I definitely wouldn't have done it but I can at least see some logic in it.

Taylor is pretty vulnerable against pace early on and struggles to get the ball away when the field is up and can use up a lot of balls that way. He's pretty decent though at playing spin and improvising towards the end. He's a better bet at 4 than 3 but Root is in that position and also better at 4 than 3 imo.

It's hard enough going into a world cup having only played 10 or so games without being batted out of position.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
I definitely wouldn't have done it but I can at least see some logic in it.

Taylor is pretty vulnerable against pace early on and struggles to get the ball away when the field is up and can use up a lot of balls that way. He's pretty decent though at playing spin and improvising towards the end. He's a better bet at 4 than 3 but Root is in that position and also better at 4 than 3 imo.

It's hard enough going into a world cup having only played 10 or so games without being batted out of position.
The whole point of him batting at 3 is that this isn't a problem, though. At 6, a lot of the time he's going to need to come in and score at a run a ball from the outset, and he's clearly not set up to do that.
 

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Ali
Hales
Taylor
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Billings
Woakes
Wood
Broad
AN.Other

The batting isn't great but at least it could be fun and competitive and there are names outside the list there (Vince, Roy, Ballance, Morgan) who could come in.

The bowling is just so bleugh. Wood has to be given a run if he can keep his body together. Broa will stay. The other spot will probably be one of Finn or Jordan which is not at all inspiring but there's just a lack of proven options elsewhere or anyone really staking a claim. Willey and Gregory might be worth tracking. David Payne takes lots of OD wickets doesn't he? Otherwise it's hoping Tymal Mills or Matt Dunn can establish themselves as threats with the White ball.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
The whole point of him batting at 3 is that this isn't a problem, though. At 6, a lot of the time he's going to need to come in and score at a run a ball from the outset, and he's clearly not set up to do that.
Yes but the field is generally back and allows him to get off strike. He's also facing more spin at the time. Ballance, Bell, Trott, whoever are more classical batsman can all hit boundaries when the field is up through conventional strokeplay and can face up to good seam bowling, Taylor really doesn't have that and he's a big lbw candidate against the seamers early.
 

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