• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Who is the greatest English bowler of all time?

Who is the greatest English bowler of all time?


  • Total voters
    49

ImpatientLime

International Regular
another casual match turning performance at the tender age of 40 from the cloud king on a terrible road. adds another page to his storied career.

these three i think are clear in english history, who ya got?
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Written by SJS on Sydney Barnes-

He bowled leg breaks at medium pace. He also swung them in at the same pace and worse of all he swung them in, very sharply from oustside the off stump, they pitched on the leg stump, broke away like leg breaks and knocked off stumps out of the ground !!

Barnes had..... in the eyes of most mature batsmen of the day - an aloof 'lone wolf' appearance, six feet tall, a hatchet jaw, piercing, unsmiling eyes, and a lean hungry look, hungry for wickets....

he remained a man apart, a 'mercenary', so to say. I remember him as a p[layer who most times seemed to isolate himself on the field; he wasn't given to chatter at the fall of a wicket. He sent a wind of antagonism blowing over cricket fields everywhere.

...Orielly was supposed to announce in his every motion...that he hated the sight of all batsmen. Compared with Barnes, O'rielly was a font of beneficence and geniality.Yet A>C> Maclaren vowed that no bowler ...was so easy to manage as Barnes. ' I would toss him the ball, let him set his own field - and that was that....'

On a certain historical occasion, an England captain did not toss the ball to Barnes...Douglas (captaining in the absence of Warner) ran ahead and cammandeered the new ball. Barnes said to a colleague, ' What's he taking the new ball for - is he opening with Mr Foster'

Douglas did open the England attack that day at Sydney, December 15th 191. Australia compiled 411....and won by 146 runs. Barnes : 35 overs; 5 maidens: 107 runs: 3 wickets and 30 overs: 8 maidens: 72 runs: 1 wicket.

In the next match...Douglas tossed the new ball to Barnes....It is as wel known in cricket history, as in history proper the batles of Hastings and Waterloo are known...

Barnes demolished the strong first line of Australian batsmanship by overthrowing Bardsley, Kelleway, Hill and Armstrong in five overs for one run only.
At lunch Australia had somehow acquired 34 for 4; after an hour and ten minutes of ruthless, smooth, rythmic action, Barnes had bowled 9 overs: 6 maidens: 11runs: for 4 wickets.

The astounding fact of this renowned piece of bowling is that Barnes was suffering from some dizziness, actually saying to his captain that he'll have to 'chuck it - I can hardly see the other end'


In this Australian first innings his final figures were 23 - 9 - 44 - 5

In the series , which England won eventually, Barnes had 32 wickets at 21.6 runs each. He was 38 years old then.

There is a popular misconception that Barnes took most of his wickets against South Africa. This is not true. While he did demolish South Africa in the 7 games he p[layed against them, his performance against Australia was not to be scoffed at.

In 20 Ashes games, Barnes took 106 test wickets at 21.6 each getting a five wicket haul 12 times.

England played Australia 43 times between 1901 (when Barnes made his debut) and 1914 (when he played his last game) of these Barnes played less than half.

This, inspite of the fact that he was by fasr the most devastating bowler IN TESTS during this period with 189 wickets in 27 tests(87 against SAF in 7 games besides those against Australia.

He was easily the most successful bowler in the Ashes in this period (with his 102 in 20 games) which included great bowlers on both the sides,

England used, besides Barnes...

- Rhodes 81 in 33
- Braund 46 in 20
- Hirst 46 in 19
- Blythe 41 in 9 games
- Foster 34 in 8 (32 in one series mentioned above)

And its not as if he had bad form because of which he was dropped.

There is also a fallacy about easy wickets against South Africa. Well England disnt include him in all games. They plated three series against South Africa during this period without Barnes and here are the results.

- 1905-06 (In SAfrica) England lost 1-4 !!

- 1907 (In England) England won 1-0 ( 2 games drawn)

- 1909-10 (In S Africa) England lost 2-3 !!

A grand score of 4 to 7 (with 2 draws - Clearly if any team looked like being the minows. it wasnt S Africa

Then, with Barnes ending his career, at the age of 39 he was played in the series in England in 1912 (also involving Australia).

- England won 3-0 Barnes doing it single handedly with 34 wickets in 3 games at 8.3 runs each !!!

- Then they took him to S Africa at the ripe old age of 40 and in the four tests that he played, he took a record (most likely never to be equalled) 49 wickets (in 4 tests mind you) at 10.9 each. England won the series 4-0.

Surely it was only Barnes who made S Africa look like they couldnt tell which end of the bat to hold not anyone else in England. This was more a commentary on the ever improving genius of Barnes rather than South Africa being such no-hopers.

England during this period were not a very strong side. They could ill afford to keep a bowler like Barnes out, yet they did. It is anybody's guess what his tally (189 in 27 tests) would have been had he played those additional 20 games against Australia and the 15 juicy ones (for Barnes alone) against the Proteas !!
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Thaatha (grandpa in tamil) defintely has good claims to be this for England. He has won tests (and probably series) in Aus, Ind and now maybe Pak. I am not sure what his record is in SL but while he is not quite an ATG or the creme de la creme among pace bowlers, I do think he is a great fast bowler who deserves to be called England's greatest for sheer longevity and contribution to the side becoming a top test team.
 

cnerd123

likes this
I'm a huge Barnes fan but it must be said that he did most of his best work in club cricket, and didn't play as much Test or FC cricket as he should have.

If we focus purely on body of work in Tests, it's getting harder and harder to look past Jimmy.
 

Ashes81

State Vice-Captain
Anderson has to be in the conversation along with Trueman, Barnes and for me George Lohmann.

Yes Lohmann was a long long time ago and he only played 18 tests but he took 112 wkts at 10.75 with a strike rate of 34.1.

Against the Aussies he had 77 wkts at 13.01 with a better record in Oz than at home.

His record in S Africa was 35 wkts at 5.8

He has an unbelievably high rating on the ICC rankings - the 2nd highest ever.

Its all but impossible to compare him to Anderson or Trueman but he was miles ahead of his peers and must have been a hell of a bowler.
 

peterhrt

U19 Vice-Captain
Twenty contenders in chronological order. Have tried to include counter-arguments for each.

Lohmann. Test record misleading as opponents' batting not fully developed. But was also the most successful English bowler of his time in first-class cricket, especially on truer pitches. Copied Spofforth's changes of pace but not as fast. Probably around Underwood's pace.

Richardson. Tremendous stamina and consistency for a fast bowler. Could bowl all day. Not much variety - didn't use the short ball. Burned out after five years.

Rhodes. Master of flight. For half a dozen years perhaps the best ever English spinner on good pitches. Bowling then fell away as his batting developed.

Barnes. Widely regarded as the greatest for a long time after retirement. Opted out of county cricket, which was considered by some at the time to be the pinnacle of the game. Prone to sulk and stop trying if things didn't go his way. Said himself that his method most resembled Bedser's: medium-fast with movement through the air and off the pitch.

Tate, Larwood, Verity. The leading English bowlers of the inter-war period, all with classic actions that made their way into the MCC Coaching Manual. Each enjoyed only one really good Ashes series. O'Reilly, in contrast, registered four out of four for Australia.

Bedser. Touched the heights in the early 1950s but early career unproductive.

Laker. Much more effective in helpful English conditions.

Statham. The most accurate English fast bowler. Didn't swing the ball.

Trueman. Same comment as for Laker. Many of his Test wickets were also against weak opponents. By the time he was a regular pick for England he was no longer fast, relying on swing and cut.

Snow. Excellent in West Indies and Australia, outbowling the home pacemen. Not as dangerous in more familiar surroundings where he sometimes lost interest.

Underwood. Quickish for a spinner and very accurate. Like Verity and Laker, mainly a defensive bowler on good pitches.

Willis. Genuinely fast despite injuries. No swing. Didn't bother in county cricket.

Botham. 139 Test wickets at 18. Then his back went.

Gough. Best English bowling average (26) in away Tests after Barnes [qualification 100 wickets]. England's finest exponent of reverse swing. Would have achieved more but for injuries.

Flintoff. Record may not look as good as some of the others on paper, but a class act when fully fit. Hostile, accurate and persistent, able to roughen up opponents' leading batsmen. Vies with Gough for the title of England's best limited-overs bowler.

Swann. Vital component of a successful four-man attack, bowling lots of overs in both innings. More of a threat against left-handers.

Anderson and Broad. England's leading Test wicket-takers by a mile. Relieved of other commitments to help keep them going in Tests. Both average over thirty with the ball outside England.
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Anderson has to be in the conversation along with Trueman, Barnes and for me George Lohmann.

Yes Lohmann was a long long time ago and he only played 18 tests but he took 112 wkts at 10.75 with a strike rate of 34.1.

Against the Aussies he had 77 wkts at 13.01 with a better record in Oz than at home.

His record in S Africa was 35 wkts at 5.8

He has an unbelievably high rating on the ICC rankings - the 2nd highest ever.

Its all but impossible to compare him to Anderson or Trueman but he was miles ahead of his peers and must have been a hell of a bowler.
Lohmann was the greatest to play for Major Wharton's XI but it doesn't make sense to include him, especially for his record against SA, when the matches he played were not representative games as they weren't even billed as England Vs South Africa (or some close version thereof) and he played against sub club standard opposition. In all likelihood, he died without ever knowing that those matches counted as tests or even as important matches. His record against Australia is still great and he was probably the best bowler in the country though.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Twenty contenders in chronological order. Have tried to include counter-arguments for each.

Lohmann. Test record misleading as opponents' batting not fully developed. But was also the most successful English bowler of his time in first-class cricket, especially on truer pitches. Copied Spofforth's changes of pace but not as fast. Probably around Underwood's pace.

Richardson. Tremendous stamina and consistency for a fast bowler. Could bowl all day. Not much variety - didn't use the short ball. Burned out after five years.

Rhodes. Master of flight. For half a dozen years perhaps the best ever English spinner on good pitches. Bowling then fell away as his batting developed.

Barnes. Widely regarded as the greatest for a long time after retirement. Opted out of county cricket, which was considered by some at the time to be the pinnacle of the game. Prone to sulk and stop trying if things didn't go his way. Said himself that his method most resembled Bedser's: medium-fast with movement through the air and off the pitch.

Tate, Larwood, Verity. The leading English bowlers of the inter-war period, all with classic actions that made their way into the MCC Coaching Manual. Each enjoyed only one really good Ashes series. O'Reilly, in contrast, registered four out of four for Australia.

Bedser. Touched the heights in the early 1950s but early career unproductive.

Laker. Much more effective in helpful English conditions.

Statham. The most accurate English fast bowler. Didn't swing the ball.

Trueman. Same comment as for Laker. Many of his Test wickets were also against weak opponents. By the time he was a regular pick for England he was no longer fast, relying on swing and cut.

Snow. Excellent in West Indies and Australia, outbowling the home pacemen. Not as dangerous in more familiar surroundings where he sometimes lost interest.

Underwood. Quickish for a spinner and very accurate. Like Verity and Laker, mainly a defensive bowler on good pitches.

Willis. Genuinely fast despite injuries. No swing. Didn't bother in county cricket.

Botham. 139 Test wickets at 18. Then his back went.

Gough. Best English bowling average (26) in away Tests after Barnes [qualification 100 wickets]. England's finest exponent of reverse swing. Would have achieved more but for injuries.

Flintoff. Record may not look as good as some of the others on paper, but a class act when fully fit. Hostile, accurate and persistent, able to roughen up opponents' leading batsmen. Vies with Gough for the title of England's best limited-overs bowler.

Swann. Vital component of a successful four-man attack, bowling lots of overs in both innings. More of a threat against left-handers.

Anderson and Broad. England's leading Test wicket-takers by a mile. Relieved of other commitments to help keep them going in Tests. Both average over thirty with the ball outside England.
Jeez that away stat is just sad, 26 is your best away average post war.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Lohmann was the greatest to play for Major Wharton's XI but it doesn't make sense to include him, especially for his record against SA, when the matches he played were not representative games as they weren't even billed as England Vs South Africa (or some close version thereof) and he played against sub club standard opposition. In all likelihood, he died without ever knowing that those matches counted as tests or even as important matches. His record against Australia is still great and he was probably the best bowler in the country though.
Correct, incredibly.

I noticed you voted for Trueman - does that mean you believe Neil Adcock > every Englishman as a bowler?
 

Top