What criteria would you use in rating the best?

[Days of Grace]

As most of you know, I continue to work and refine my ratings for test cricket and ODIs. With statsguru, I can now incorporate many more factors into rating batsmen and bowlers, which improve my ratings every time.

I now want to ask cricketweb members about which bowling and batting averages are important in tests and ODIs:

Tests
Overall average - of course

Peak average - the highest average attained after a certain number of tests/best block of 30 tests (which is more difficult to get from statsguru, a lot more work)

Away average - ability to perform in different conditions

Wins average - average in team wins - I thought of this yesterday - how much do you contribute to your teams win.

Non-minnow average - performances against the test-standard teams of one's playing era.

ODIs
Overall average

Peak average

Away average - I don't think this counts for as much in ODIs, so I'm thinking of cutting it out.

Wins average

Non-minnow average

Batting second (chasing average) - for ODIs only. I thought of this yesterday too. I think there is a little more pressure chasing in ODIs, unless you are only chasing a small score.


Of course, I have other factors for rating as well, like career runs, centuries, strike-rate etc.

But I want to know what batting and bowling averages you consider to be important, and how important they are: e.g. is away average more important to you then wins average?

Any opinions are welcome.

 

[Precambrian]

Tests

Batting

1. Overall batting average

2. Batting average IN different countries, esp harder countries to tour, (for an Australian, usually, India ; others, Australia etc)

3. Away batting average excluding Bangladesh

Bowling

1. Overall bowling average

2. Bowling average v/s each team excluding minnows

3. Bowling avg in conditions deemed difficult for that craft (for spinners usually Australia, Eng, or for spinners of non-subcontinent origin, their performance against india)

4. Bowling average against the best team. (Australia)

5. Replace strike rates for averages above.

 

[Days of Grace]

Tests



5. Replace strike rates for averages above.

I think people here overrate strike-rates a fair bit for bowlers.

A bowler can take wickets every 50 balls, which is great, but go for over 3.5 runs an over. He would have a bowling average of 30, which is fairly, umm...average.

 

[SJS]

Win percentage or performance in matches won by a side is one of the most exaggerated measures one can think of. One player can not win matches by himself, hence you may have great performances and yet the team may lose. In fact, the reverse criteria , if any, should be looked at. How do you perform when a team is losing. If you perform outstandingly, and still the team loses, it shows that under the greatest of pressures, when others dont perform, you do.

One can show so many cases to illustrate this point.

Here are some 'worthless players' whose teams never won a Test when they were playing.

Vijay Merchant. (10 Tests, 9 away, batting average 47.7)
Charlie Dempster : 10 Tests, batting avg 65.73
Martin Donnelly : 7 Tests, average 52.91


IOts not just those who played fewer Tests who can have such figures. Even if these cricxkters had played longer they wouldn't have participated in winning sides til the entire team's standard improved.

Sticking to New Zealand, there is the case of Bert Sutcliffe, arguably, the greatest batsman from that country ever. He played as many as 42 Test matches, averaged 40.10 and yet he never played in a Test NZland won.

 

[Precambrian]

I think people here overrate strike-rates a fair bit for bowlers.

A bowler can take wickets every 50 balls, which is great, but go for over 3.5 runs an over. He would have a bowling average of 30, which is fairly, umm...average.

One side of the point. Another side is that, it adds tremendous value to know whether the bowler is really a Strike bowler or a stock bowler.

And these days, I'd take that 30 average for that 50 SR believe me!

 

[Days of Grace]

Does anyone know if statsguru or another statistical website has a function where you can find a batsmen's/bowler's best block 'peak' of 30 consecutive tests?

On statsguru I have to look at match lists for each player and count 30 matches and try to guess when their peak occured. Hard work!

Is there a better way?

 

[bryce]

-Average
-Strength of opposition
-Home/away ground
-Added emphasis on recent form

 

[Indipper]

Length of peak should count for something as it gives a relation to career average. Don't think that the performance of team mates should come into it really cause no one can help that. But if you want to add that sort of thing a game saving knock like that 337 by Hanif should count more than Lara's 400* which prevented a result from the start.

 

[Days of Grace]

Yes, I have decided to drop wins average from the formula.

I have added in a 15/25/30 test peak average (15 tests for players before WWII, 25 tests for players before 1970, and 30 tests for players after 1970).

Been doing some of the peaks for test bowlers. Imran's 30 test peak average is 15.24!!!

 

[Precambrian]

Does anyone know if statsguru or another statistical website has a function where you can find a batsmen's/bowler's best block 'peak' of 30 consecutive tests?

On statsguru I have to look at match lists for each player and count 30 matches and try to guess when their peak occured. Hard work!

Is there a better way?

What about the option "Cumulative averages"? Also can use the site "Howstat.com"

Use cumulative averages to find out where exactly the 30-test-run of "peak-form"occurs. Then use filter to take averages for only those test matches.

 

[Days of Grace]

What about the option "Cumulative averages"? Also can use the site "Howstat.com"

Use cumulative averages to find out where exactly the 30-test-run of "peak-form"occurs. Then use filter to take averages for only those test matches.

It's a lot of guess-work, though. Usually the peak form occurs, or ends where the peak career average is.

Do you think for ODI batsmen, that a batting second average is a useful criteria?

 

[Precambrian]

It's a lot of guess-work, though. Usually the peak form occurs, or ends where the peak career average is.

Do you think for ODI batsmen, that a batting second average is a useful criteria?

Yep, a bit of guess work there.

Batting second average is a nice indicator imo because it is deemed that batsmen are usually under bit of pressure while chasing a target. Another of my fav indicators is average in tournament finals.

 

[Goughy]

I find completed games average very important.

Ie averages in games won or lost.

Conditions differ so much around the world that runs on roads should not be worth the same as runs on minefields.

In order to try and set a criteria that is the same to compare, I like the fact 1 team in the game was, usually, capable of taking 20 wickets. Eliminates runs scored in high scoring bore draws and narrows the games to where they had a result and helps to compare.

Horribly described, but I hope people understand it. I have a headache.

 

[weldone]

For batsmen -

Average of all batsmen combined (no. 1 to no. 7) against the countries he played against and in the same time period.

For bowlers -

Average of all bowlers combined against the countries he played against and in the same time period.

 

[Uppercut]

Does anyone know if statsguru or another statistical website has a function where you can find a batsmen's/bowler's best block 'peak' of 30 consecutive tests?

On statsguru I have to look at match lists for each player and count 30 matches and try to guess when their peak occured. Hard work!

Is there a better way?

As Pnottath said, i'd go to Howstat and look at their performances by year or series. Hard work still, and maybe not worth it, but certainly better than what you're doing with statsguru!

One more thing, which seems to have been forgotten, is the comparative value of dismissing tail-enders. It can make a big difference- Makhaya Ntini has taken only 23% of his wickets from those batting at 8-11, while Dale Steyn has taken 34% of his from those positions. It's especially important if you're using non-minnow average- potentially, a bowler could be given more credit for dismissing Andy Flower than they would Chris Martin.

 

[Days of Grace]

One more thing, which seems to have been forgotten, is the comparative value of dismissing tail-enders. It can make a big difference- Makhaya Ntini has taken only 23% of his wickets from those batting at 8-11, while Dale Steyn has taken 34% of his from those positions. It's especially important if you're using non-minnow average- potentially, a bowler could be given more credit for dismissing Andy Flower than they would Chris Martin.

Good point, mate. I will do that for bowler's ratings.

I have done away with non-minnow averages, as they don't seem to make much of a difference.

I have now added 2nd inns average, strike-rate for major innings (i.e. 80+ runs), for test batsmen.

And century average (how many runs you score past 100). Gives an indicator of a batsmen's powers of concentration once he's set. So, in a sequence of 150, 145*, 100, 121, 135, the century average is 37.75.

So many changes have occured, and the list is looking better every day. Can't wait to show you a top 50!

Sangakkara's century average is 121.64

 

[Days of Grace]

Provisional Top 50 Test Batsmen Surprises are in bold.

1 DG Bradman 1475
2 JB Hobbs 927
3 WR Hammond 905
4 RT Ponting 882
5 SR Tendulkar 867
6 GS Sobers 862
7 L Hutton 857
8 JH Kallis 845
9 BC Lara 845
10 GA Headley 840
11 KF Barrington 832
12 KC Sangakkara 821
13 ML Hayden 821
14 H Sutcliffe 819
15 SM Gavaskar 813
16 R Dravid 812
17 Mohammad Yousuf 807
18 SR Waugh 805
19 MEK Hussey 801
20 IVA Richards 801
21 ED Weekes 798
22 GS Chappell 796
23 AD Nourse 792
24 AR Border 783
25 CL Walcott 777
26 Javed Miandad 775
27 A Flower 773
28 DCS Compton 768
29 Inzamam-ul-Haq 761
30 V Sehwag 756
31 VT Trumper 753
32 DPMD Jayawardene 744
33 KS Ranjitsinhji 743
34 B Mitchell 738
35 C Hill 736
36 GC Smith 734
37 AC Gilchrist 725
38 Younis Khan 720
39 RN Harvey 720
40 G Boycott 715
41 SJ McCabe 712
42 S Chanderpaul 703
43 CH Lloyd 702
44 KP Pietersen 700
45 FMM Worrell 700
46 CG Macartney 699
47 RG Pollock 693
48 FS Jackson 692
49 AR Morris 691
50 G Kirsten 689

 

[Uppercut]

Good point, mate. I will do that for bowler's ratings.

I have done away with non-minnow averages, as they don't seem to make much of a difference.

I have now added 2nd inns average, strike-rate for major innings (i.e. 80+ runs), for test batsmen.

And century average (how many runs you score past 100). Gives an indicator of a batsmen's powers of concentration once he's set. So, in a sequence of 150, 145*, 100, 121, 135, the century average is 37.75.

So many changes have occured, and the list is looking better every day. Can't wait to show you a top 50!

Sangakkara's century average is 121.64

Hmm, what's Virender Sehwag's century average? I expect it will be something equally ridiculous...

 

[Migara]

Flower is not that of a surprise IMO. Flower in a better side would have made him the heaviest scorer of recent era.

 

[Days of Grace]

Hmm, what's Virender Sehwag's century average? I expect it will be something equally ridiculous...

Top 30 century averages: Qualification: 5 centuries or more

1 KC Sangakkara 121.64
2 DG Bradman 108.39
3 FMM Worrell 105.00
4 SJ McCabe 101.50 (no wonder he jumps right up the latest ratings)
5 A Flower 100.00
6 WR Hammond 99.00
7 SP Fleming 97.86
8 V Sehwag 92.14
9 Javed Miandad 85.60
10 VT Trumper 77.80
11 BC Lara 77.78
12 GS Sobers 77.53
13 SR Tendulkar 71.67
14 L Hutton 71.07
15 GA Headley 69.14
16 ST Jayasuriya 68.29
17 GC Smith 68.21
18 SR Waugh 67.18
19 R Dravid 66.15
20 DPMD Jayawardene 64.10
21 RG Pollock 63.86
22 IVA Richards 59.79
23 Mohammad Yousuf 56.47
24 JH Kallis 56.11
25 GS Chappell 55.74
26 RT Ponting 55.39
27 WH Ponsford 55.29
28 Younis Khan 55.15
29 AR Border 55.00
30 S Chanderpaul 53.11

Frustrates me actually to see Fleming so high up. If he had got past his mental block with centuries, he could have averaged 50.