Watson- ****, Hair but no Iceberg

[King_Ponting]

As stated by one of the tabloids in england, the name eludes me. How many members actually agree with this statement (and if its hard for u to decificer it means looks but no performance)? I for one believe he is one of the most overated crickters playing international cricket

 

[luckyeddie]

I had a double-take at the thread name, and after reading your explanation, I'm still none the wiser.

The only things I know about icebergs are
a) Tasty lettuce
b) less than 10% ever makes itself apparent (much like the brains of certain CW contributors)
c) Smaller ones are known as 'growlers' - and 'growler' is itself an obscure colloquialism for 'toilet'

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

As we're discussed before, I disagree.

Watson is only 24, and is in my opinion one of the most promising players going around anywhere as things stand. He's not ready for test cricket yet, but he's got a heap of talent with the bat (enough to be a specialist test batsman, for me), and with the ball he's got a lot of work to do but there's potential there as well. Most players peak in their late 20s with the ball and their early 30s with the bat, so I'd not be panicking yet.

People who write him off now do so at their own risk, because frankly there's nothing to judge him on yet. If you judge him on his FC record obviously he has done very well, but that's not international standard. If you judge him on his ODI record he looks pretty poor, but he's been played in a role alien to him, and his game is not suited to the limited overs format anyway. There's nothing to judge him on in tests yet.

Furthermore, it's important to remember that his role in the test team, should he make it, will be either a specialist batsman or a batting all-rounder batting around 6. That is the role he's suited to, not batting at 8 as a bowler who can smack the ball around at the death, which is what he's being used for in ODIs. I still think he can become a good ODI player, but he's not there yet and he was never someone you would immediately expect to succeed in that role.

Give him time and plenty of domestic cricket and hopefully a season or two without any injury troubles, and then if he's still performing and there's a space available, give him a run in the test squad.

 

[superkingdave]

there is definately a place in the future Australian team for a player of his type - when Warne and Mcgrath go i don't think Australia will be as able to go into a match with just 4 bowlers if you get me, and to have someone who can average 40 with the bat and bowl at 80mph+ will be important. Is there anyone else up an coming in the Aussie system who will fulfill this role or do people think that Australia will still be able to rely on just 4 bowlers?

 

[King_Ponting]

there is definately a place in the future Australian team for a player of his type - when Warne and Mcgrath go i don't think Australia will be as able to go into a match with just 4 bowlers if you get me, and to have someone who can average 40 with the bat and bowl at 80mph+ will be important. Is there anyone else up an coming in the Aussie system who will fulfill this role or do people think that Australia will still be able to rely on just 4 bowlers?

well they've done it with success for the past decade

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

there is definately a place in the future Australian team for a player of his type - when Warne and Mcgrath go i don't think Australia will be as able to go into a match with just 4 bowlers if you get me, and to have someone who can average 40 with the bat and bowl at 80mph+ will be important. Is there anyone else up an coming in the Aussie system who will fulfill this role or do people think that Australia will still be able to rely on just 4 bowlers?

I'm not sure the four bowler thing is that significant really. Australia have always lacked great all-rounders, and still almost always used four bowlers. If Watson does play in the test side, his bowling will just be a bonus I think, unless he improves drastically. For future pacers, I'd be looking at Tait and Lee... and of course Gillespie will still be around then if he is still bowling well.

Not to say Australia won't lack significantly in the bowling department (at least comparitively) after Warne and McGrath go, but I don't think five bowlers is really the issue so much as quality.

 

[luckyeddie]

well they've done it with success for the past decade

The point is that your current bowling side are on the downhill side of zimmerframe mountain, and whereas McGrath and Warne have really been all you've ever really needed to see the back of most sides, where are the next ones? Brett's return to form is a huge bonus, but Gillespie, Tait and the GLA sound more like support bowlers to me as opposed to a spearhead, similarly with Watson.

 

[King_Ponting]

The point is that your current bowling side are on the downhill side of zimmerframe mountain, and whereas McGrath and Warne have really been all you've ever really needed to see the back of most sides, where are the next ones? Brett's return to form is a huge bonus, but Gillespie, Tait and the GLA sound more like support bowlers to me as opposed to a spearhead, similarly with Watson.

I think if he does play for australia tait will be much the same as lee and becuase of his unusual action and pace, will come into the spearhead category

 

[luckyeddie]

I think if he does play for australia tait will be much the same as lee and becuase of his unusual action and pace, will come into the spearhead category

I mentioned this the other day...

Speed = nothing.
Accuracy = nothing.
Speed + Accuracy = everything.

It's a simplistic view and obviously there are exceptions, but his pace will count for little unless he stops endangering the square leg umpire, the drinks seller in Row Q and the guy flying the Boeing overhead.

 

[chaminda_00]

I think a lot of people forget that guys like Harmison and Shoiab started off with little accuracy but improved over time. I reckon guys like Tait, Lee and Johnson will improve their accuracy and are capable of being spearheads to Australia bowling attack. No doubt they wont be as strong as this bowling attack with McGarth and Warne, but no doubt they will be still strong.

On Watson i agree with FDO, Watson hasn't been used right in the ODI and when he gets a run as a batting all rounder we will see what he is capable of.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

The mention of Tait, Lee and Johnson is an interesting one. With those guys all bowling at express pace, and Watson a potential all-rounder in tests, if no spinner shows up could Australia be seen with an all-pace attack? Lee/Tait/Johnson/Gillespie or something, with Watson as back-up? There's also Aaron Bird coming through now, who reportedly bowls at tremendous pace and flattened Michael Slater in a practice match.

Would be interesting indeed.

 

[howardj]

The mention of Tait, Lee and Johnson is an interesting one. With those guys all bowling at express pace, and Watson a potential all-rounder in tests, if no spinner shows up could Australia be seen with an all-pace attack? Lee/Tait/Johnson/Gillespie or something, with Watson as back-up? There's also Aaron Bird coming through now, who reportedly bowls at tremendous pace and flattened Michael Slater in a practice match.

Would be interesting indeed.

Dan Cullen will be the spinner.

 

[chaminda_00]

The mention of Tait, Lee and Johnson is an interesting one. With those guys all bowling at express pace, and Watson a potential all-rounder in tests, if no spinner shows up could Australia be seen with an all-pace attack? Lee/Tait/Johnson/Gillespie or something, with Watson as back-up? There's also Aaron Bird coming through now, who reportedly bowls at tremendous pace and flattened Michael Slater in a practice match.

Would be interesting indeed.

It was a grade game when Slater was trying to get back in the NSW side. Aaron Bird speed does up and down like a yo-yo, one ball he bowls at Lee speed then the next his at Bichel speed.

 

[chaminda_00]

Dan Cullen will be the spinner.

if he is not a one season wonder that is....

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Dan Cullen will be the spinner.

Bit premature, don't you think? That's like saying Tait will be the Australian spearhead or Johnson will be a test quality player or Watson will be Australia's best all-rounder since Keith Miller. Far too early to judge.

I agree though that Cullen is the best spin prospect we have currently.

One team I could see in round 3-4 years time:
Hussey
Jaques
Ponting
Katich
Clarke
Watson
Haddin
Gillespie
Lee
Cullen
Tait

Another is:
Hussey
Jaques
Ponting
Katich
Clarke
Watson
White
Haddin
Lee
Tait
Johnson/Bird/Gillespie/Bracken/whoever

It's all up in the air really. The all-pace attack thing was just a thought, since it's been a while since Australia tried that.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Isn't Watson Australia's only all rounder since Keith Miller?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Isn't Watson Australia's only all rounder since Keith Miller?

There's been plenty of crap ones, hence the "best since".

As far as good ones go... I'm not sure if Alan Davidson qualifies personally as he never hit a test hundred or anything. Richie Benaud does though, so he would be the best in the intervening period, excluding part timers like the Chappells, Walters etc.

 

[BoyBrumby]

There's been plenty of crap ones, hence the "best since".

As far as good ones go... I'm not sure if Alan Davidson qualifies personally as he never hit a test hundred or anything. Richie Benaud does though, so he would be the best in the intervening period, excluding part timers like the Chappells, Walters etc.

The Waughs? Especially Steve. Early in his test career the suggestion was it was his little medium-pacers that kept him in the team. Not a genuine all-rounder perhaps, but if his back had allowed him I think he'd have been considered a batting all-rounder rather than a batter who could bowl a bit.

Junior was bordering on batting all-rounder status in ODIs at least too.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

The Waughs? Especially Steve. Early in his test career the suggestion was it was his little medium-pacers that kept him in the team. Not a genuine all-rounder perhaps, but if his back had allowed him I think he'd have been considered a batting all-rounder rather than a batter who could bowl a bit.

Junior was bordering on batting all-rounder status in ODIs at least too.

Steve was unquestionably an all-rounder in the ODIs early in his career. In fact, "Iceman" was Australia's death bowler of choice for a number of years, possessing a slower ball which made him very effective, and he's actually about 5th in the highest wicket takers in ODIs list for Australia with about the same number as Brett Lee. He once went for 17 off an over in Hobart to tie a match though... around the start of the 90s some time. I don't think he bowled so much after that. In tests he was no more an all-rounder than Doug Walters.

 

[deeps]

at the beginning of his career, steve waugh was definatly a very good all rounder