DrWolverine
International Regular
Better test bowler
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Shane Warne vs Curtly Ambrose
- Thread starter DrWolverine
- Start date
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Warne. Ambrose simply not with established success across countries as Warne.
SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
Ambrose for me
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
But Ambrose is rated higher than Imran here, and consistently so over the years.
smash84
The Tiger King
So what is it that makes warne better than Imran but not better than Ambrose?
Ambrose away avg 20-21
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IK away avg 26-27
Not just raw output, but relative output against peer goup as well, there is quite a gap between Ambrose and IK. It shouldn't be surprising to see a bowler getting rated better than IK but worse than Ambrose.
smash84
The Tiger King
You didn't answer the question though.
And can you please tell us Ambrose's output in Pakistan, South Africa, New Zealand, India and Sri Lanka? Doesn't seem like great output.
Ambrose output against non-minnows when playing away:
IK's output against non-minnows when playing away:
Not so great away output by Ambrose in some venues and yet he has 184 away wickets at avg of 20-21. We are not making a case for Amrbose to be top 3 pacers here. If he had a great output eveyrwhere then we will be a contender for top 2-3 spots.
You asked why some one may think a bowler can come between Ambrose and IK. I answered by showing a very large gap in their away output. That large gap has all places taken together they have played. You can focus on why Ambrose was not great in NZ/Pak/SA and some fans will focus on how IK and Ambrose stack up where they have played larger number of tests. Some may think that Aus and Eng works better for Ambrose so him outperforming IK by large margin there does not prove anything. So lots of arguments ....
In my opinion, very few fans will rank Ambrose ahead of IK due to home performance. it has to be due to away.
If you think Ambrose and IK are at same level, you can open a thread for IK and Ambrose for comparison. That way you can get a vote and also see all inputs from posters. If they are neck to neck then it may be fine to ask why any player can come in between these two. If gap is large enough then some players can come in between these two.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Becuse most believe Ambrose is better than Imran and there's a gap between them.
Sliferxxxx
First Class Debutant
Ambrose didn't play away as extensively as Warne but in the places he did he was great average wise. Warne and Ambrose curiously struggled vs India.
smash84
The Tiger King
You still haven't answered my question.
smash84
The Tiger King
Lol, no. I simply asked why Warne is better than IK but not better than Ambrose. This post contains nothing about Warne at all.
Secondly, his output against all the teams that I mentioned is really low. Output usually means wpm. Just taking average doesn't mean output. If you meant just average, say so. Ambrose's output away against the teams I mentioned is quite low.
Also his record against India is abysmal even at home. It's very bad and he was lucky to not play against in India vs India otherwise by the looks of things he would suffer badly .
Anyhow my point was why is Warne better than Imran but not better than Ambrose. I am not seeing any concrete points there.
And Imran isn't anywhere as atrocious as Warne India or against India or Ambrose against India. India was the best spin playing side during Warne's time and he sucked against them real bad. So I don't quite see how Warne was better than IK..and if he was due to other factors then what are those factors and how do they stack up against Ambrose that makes Ambrose better?
Which other great peers of IK averged 26-27 away against non-minnows? Can you name few?
Concrete point - There is a huge gap between Ambrose and IK away performance. When there is a huge gap then a bowler can come in that gap. If you think gap is negligible then please start a thread Ambrose vs IK. You will get plenty of input from everyone. Ambrose surely has holes in his record but he is getting compared to a pacer having away average 26-27 and SR of 60+. Ambrose is not getting compared to Marshall here. Plenty of other greats did very well away during IK time so it's not about era as well.
Prime job of any bowler is to take wickets cheaply and quickly. IK averaging 26-27 and SR of 60+ is way more important stats. Yes, when other things are comaprable then WPM is important, but not when there is a huge gap in main output( taking wickets cheaply and quickly). Otherwise you can simply bowl more and take more wickets. Does not make anyone better. If you are really better then it will reflect in low Avg and SR combination.
All I was trying to convey that Ambrose is simply ahead with some gap. Now if you want to argue that IK should be ahead or behind Warne then that's a different issue. Warne can be behind Ambrose irrespective of where he stands against IK.
smash84
The Tiger King
If you read my post again, the one to which you responded, you will realize I asked for something else. Read again. I specifically asked what makes warne better than Imran but not better than Ambrose. So the subject is Warne. Your other points are not very relevant to my original query although when you mentioned "output" I questioned you on that. To me the output wasn't just average. But anyhow read my question again.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
He's beaten him in every single poll and not to mention in energy ranking.
I thought it was answered. It's due to away record of Ambrose.
I am going to rate any pacer taking 200 away wickets at avg of 20-21 over Warne specially if they have a great record against top sides of their era. I won't bother to look into any further details because averaging 20-21 away with 200 plus wickets and performance against top sides puts you in a different league. Just a cursory look makes it clear that Ambrose, Hadlee, Marshall and McGrath makes the cut easily over Warne.
I am not taking simply sorted avg to rank bowlers here. I rate IK over Pollock. I also rate IK over Wasim. I am simply pointing out that when gap is massive, no need to drill down in details. When gap is not massive then drilling down can give more idea. In case of Ambrose and Warne, gap is just massive.
Without going into trouble with filtering minnows or top sides, over all away record makes it obvious why there is no parallel in comparison between Ambrose-Warne and IK-Warne.
