Sachin Tendulkar vs Garry Sobers

[SillyCowCorner1]

Numbers don’t lie.

Not

 

[subshakerz]

Average in matches with bowler X is just piss poor though. Unless we're willing to argue that Azhar mahmood played Donald better than Sachin/Lara or Ijaz Ahmed played Mcgrath better. It's statistical noise.

Why is that crazy? A rather ordinary batsman can sometimes play a particular high quality bowler well, or a high quality batsman can struggle against a particular ordinary bowler. Think Tendulkar against Cronje. Doesn't make that ordinary bat/bowler better against all pace or bats in general.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Why is that crazy? A rather ordinary batsman can sometimes play a particular high quality bowler well, or a high quality batsman can struggle against a particular ordinary bowler.

If course it can happen. I just don't think it means much when the sample size is lol worthy. If Lara and Mahmood played Donald 30 times who do you think is going to have a higher likelihood of getting a run of scores? I know who I'm picking and funnily enough it's not the guy who averaged 75 against SA.

Theres so many issues with that kind of analysis: sample sizes are never enough, two batsmen are never likely to face the same set of conditions against that bowler, you can cream the ATG bowler but get out to the trundler making it look like you didn't play the ATG bowler well, etc. It should be binned from any serious analysis.

 

[subshakerz]

SUBS we've done this dance before. McGrath dismissed Sachin at a higher rate than he did Lara. And in matches where McGrath features, Lara averages 45 to Sachins 36. Please give this rhetoric a rest.

And you say Lara struggled vs Donald, so did Sachin. They both averaged in the 30s vs him. Doesn't matter how they looked they both struggled. Yes Sachin scored two 100s, which means for his average to still be in the 30s, he must have had some serious troughs. Whereas Lara consistently had 30s and 50s without any real big scores. Make of that what you will.

Is Lara a great player of pace? No. But neither is Sachin if we're going by his record vs McGrath, Donald, Wasim and Waqar. Sachin did well vs Steyn that's it, which is commendable.

Here is another issue with saying Tendulkar and Lara are the same vs these great pace bowlers.

Yeah Tendulkar may have averaged around the same but unlike Lara he wasn't getting dismissed by these ATG pacers.

For example, Tendulkar has only got dismissed once by Donald per series and twice in a four test series in his early years. In the 99 series, he never got dismissed by Waqar and Wasim, it was Saqlain who dismissed him.

Compare that to Lara who was dismissed 5 times by Donald and thrice by the 2Ws in his low scoring 97/98 series.

Yes, with McGrath they are roughly equal since Lara has super highs to balance his super lows and roughly similar levels of getting out. But not against the more pacier ATGs.

 

[subshakerz]

If course it can happen. I just don't think it means much when the sample size is lol worthy. If Lara and Mahmood played Donald 30 times who do you think is going to have a higher likelihood of getting a run of scores? I know who I'm picking and funnily enough it's not the guy who averaged 75 against SA.

Theres so many issues with that kind of analysis: sample sizes are never enough, two batsmen are never likely to face the same set of conditions against that bowler, you can cream the ATG bowler but get out to the trundler making it look like you didn't play the ATG bowler well, etc. It should be binned from any serious analysis.

There isn't any serious analysis on it. Nobody is going to call Azhar Mahmood a great player of pace overall though performing in back to back series against Donald is a noteworthy achievement. But we accept that cricket allows for ordinary players to inexplicably overperform against certain high quality opposition.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Here is another issue with saying Tendulkar and Lara are the same vs these great pace bowlers.

Yeah Tendulkar may have averaged around the same but unlike Lara he wasn't getting dismissed by these ATG pacers.

For example, Tendulkar has only got dismissed once by Donald per series and twice in a four test series in his early years. In the 99 series, he never got dismissed by Waqar and Wasim, it was Saqlain who dismissed him.

Compare that to Lara who was dismissed 5 times by Donald and thrice by the 2Ws in his low scoring 97/98 series.

Yes, with McGrath they are roughly equal since Lara has super highs to balance his super lows and roughly similar levels of getting out. But not against the more pacier ATGs.

Yeah a 10 points difference between average means they are roughly equal. Lol.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah a 10 points difference between average means they are roughly equal. Lol.

Against McGrath specifically not Australia overall.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah a 10 points difference between average means they are roughly equal. Lol.

They aren't but somehow Subs has convinced himself they are. He keeps harping on Lara’s struggles in the two Aus series where Lara averaged 33 and 32. Poor make no mistake about it but Sachin averaged 17 in the 2004 series in India. That's horrible.

 

[_00_deathscar]

They aren't but somehow Subs has convinced himself they are. He keeps harping on Lara’s struggles in the two Aus series where Lara averaged 33 and 32. Poor make no mistake about it but Sachin averaged 17 in the 2004 series in India. That's horrible.

Tennis elbow though
And, even more importantly, what was unknown to the rest of the world at the time, was also suffering from broken toenail

 

[subshakerz]

They aren't but somehow Subs has convinced himself they are. He keeps harping on Lara’s struggles in the two Aus series where Lara averaged 33 and 32. Poor make no mistake about it but Sachin averaged 17 in the 2004 series in India. That's horrible.

You must have never watched the 96 series. McGrath ruthlessly exposed Lara's weakness on an off-stump line in a way I have never seen for an ATG before, dismissing him cheaply five times in a row, reducing him to a complete mess. Lara regained a bit of respect with a ton in the last dead rubber test but that series was ownage. In the other 2001 series, McGrath also dismissed him cheaply three times in a row.

Tendulkar in the 2004 series got dismissed by McGrath once. Yeah it was poor but he wasn't owned by McGrath. In fact, he has never been owned by an ATG pacer IMO, the way Lara was by McGrath in 96, the 2Ws in 97 and Donald in 98.

 

[Slifer]

Against McGrath specifically not Australia overall.

Subs Sachin is very very fortunate in that in the two series he's averaged the most vs Australia his main foil McGrath didn't play. Sachin's best series was 97-98 against the likes of Gavin Robertson, Michael Kasprowicz and Adam Dale. Seriously? Then in '04 it was a bunch of nobodies. Not his fault, and one can only play who's put in front of us. But vs Australia's best attacks, Lara was distinctly better than Sachin.

 

[Slifer]

Tennis elbow though
And, even more importantly, what was unknown to the rest of the world at the time, was also suffering from broken toenail

Yeah I knew someone would bring that up but Lara played the entire 2000 series in Australia with a messed up shoulder. So there you go, neither was at 100% but one did bad the other horribly bad.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Yeah I knew someone would bring that up but Lara played the entire 2000 series in Australia with a messed up shoulder. So there you go, neither was at 100% but one did bad the other horribly bad.

Doesn’t matter - Lara didn’t have the far more serious injury of a broken toenail

 

[Slifer]

Doesn’t matter - Lara didn’t have the far more serious injury of a broken toenail

Broken toenail?? Ok....

 

[subshakerz]

Subs Sachin is very very fortunate in that in the two series he's averaged the most vs Australia his main foil McGrath didn't play. Sachin's best series was 97-98 against the likes of Gavin Robertson, Michael Kasprowicz and Adam Dale. Seriously? Then in '04 it was a bunch of nobodies. Not his fault, and one can only play who's put in front of us. But vs Australia's best attacks, Lara was distinctly better than Sachin.

No, against the ATG Australia attack, Lara had poor series in 96 and 2001, an ATG series in 99 and a good series in 2005.

Tendulkar had good series in 99 and 2001 and a poor series of a couple of tests in 2004/5. So roughly equal.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

No, against the ATG Australia attack, Lara had poor series in 96 and 2001, an ATG series in 99 and a good series in 2005.

Tendulkar had good series in 99 and 2001 and a poor series of a couple of tests in 2004/5. So roughly equal.

Stop embarrassing yourself

 

[Slifer]

You must have never watched the 96 series. McGrath ruthlessly exposed Lara's weakness on an off-stump line in a way I have never seen for an ATG before, dismissing him cheaply five times in a row, reducing him to a complete mess. Lara regained a bit of respect with a ton in the last dead rubber test but that series was ownage. In the other 2001 series, McGrath also dismissed him cheaply three times in a row.

Tendulkar in the 2004 series got dismissed by McGrath once. Yeah it was poor but he wasn't owned by McGrath. In fact, he has never been owned by an ATG pacer IMO, the way Lara was by McGrath in 96, the 2Ws in 97 and Donald in 98.

Cough cough those aren't the only series Lara played vs McGrath. I've never seen a great batsman conquer a great attack pretty much by himself like Lara did in '99. Pity Lara only got to play McGrath in only two tests in 2003. It'd be more of the same imo.

I don't understand how a player can average 10 runs more vs a particular bowler, get dismissed at a lower rate but somehow be considered lesser vs that said bowler but ok.

 

[subshakerz]

Cough cough those aren't the only series Lara played vs McGrath. I've never seen a great batsman conquer a great attack pretty much by himself like Lara did in '99. Pity Lara only got to play McGrath in only two tests in 2003. It'd be more of the same imo.

I don't understand how a player can average 10 runs more vs a particular bowler, get dismissed at a lower rate but somehow be considered lesser vs that said bowler but ok.

I don't, I consider them roughly equal against McGrath, I said so above.

Lara was worse against Donald and the 2Ws though.

 

[subshakerz]

Stop embarrassing yourself

What do you disagree with, let's discuss.

 

[Slifer]

No, against the ATG Australia attack, Lara had poor series in 96 and 2001, an ATG series in 99 and a good series in 2005.

Tendulkar had good series in 99 and 2001 and a poor series of a couple of tests in 2004/5. So roughly equal.

Subs that's not equal. Sachin averaged 45, 50 and 17 vs McGrath. 2 good and one horrible.

Lara: 44, 33, 91, 32, 46 and 57. 3 good, 2 poor, 1 unreal.