No Ashes for India and Pakistan

[adharcric]

Besides did you forget the Imran Khan statements that India-Pak should solve their kashmir problems on cricket field instead of battle field..(Now I am guessing that you dont remember khan making any such statement)

Did he really say that? Tell me more about it, because then I'll be convinced he's an idiot, although thus far I had tremendous respect and admiration for him.

Btw, Sidhu's remarks about Moin Khan needing mental help (or at least thats what they were presented as) were simply brilliant.

 

[Deja moo]

Yes that is the only reason India-Pak have rivalry. They have a rivalry in every thing from playing Hockey to Cricket to making Nuclear Bombs. If you want to live in denial, then its not my problem. Remove the Jingoism and India-Pakistan rivalry is as good/bad as India-SL.

No. India-SL comes nowhere near ind-Pak in terms of rivalry, quality, entertainment, whatever. I can see no reason for you to bring in Ind-SL (or Ind-Eng earlier) other than in an attempt to downplay the Ind-Pak series and make it seem inferior to the eyes of the uninformed observer.They're not even close.

Besides did you forget the Imran Khan statements that India-Pak should solve their kashmir problems on cricket field instead of battle field..(Now I am guessing that you dont remember khan making any such statement)

Because politicians pandering to a local audience always make sense, don't they ?

India Pak played the last series in 1998 and one test of ATC in 1999 and after that they didn't play for 5 years..If you want to count that series then why not go back to 1989 also. It's only since 2004 we have started playing regularly again...thanks to the Peace waves. And no IMO it was one exceptional series and 3 ordinary series.

You have your opinions, we have ours. And regularity is all you can harp on. Its an argument which essentially equates to Aus-Bong having a great rivalry if they played regularly.

 

[Sanz]

Because politicians pandering to a local audience always make sense, don't they ?

Imran made these comments as cricketer not as politician. But I dont expect you to remember that. Not to forget the fact that you used Botham's one statement to declare Ashes as a result of Master-Convicts thing yet even refuse to acknowledge that Ind-Pak have any jingoistic rivalry despite quoting two Pakistani legends. Do you remember SRT's statement he made after the pak match in the world cup or even that has dissappeared from your radar ?

You have your opinions, we have ours. And regularity is all you can harp on. Its an argument which essentially equates to Aus-Bong having a great rivalry if they played regularly.

You can continue live in your world of Ifs and Buts..the fact will remain that Australia and Bangladesh dont play every 2 years and rivalry is much more than regularity..look at the traditions, contests in the 125 yeas of ashes. Something an Ind-Pak series cant match.

 

[Sanz]

Did he really say that? Tell me more about it, because then I'll be convinced he's an idiot, although thus far I had tremendous respect and admiration for him.

Yes, He repeatedly said that in 80s.

Controversial statements
Imran Khan is known for making a few politically charged statements that have raised eyebrows even when he was the captain of the Pakistan team and later in his role as a politician. The first of these statements came during an India Pakistan match in Sharjah where Imran remarked, "Let's settle the Kashmir issue over the cricket match". Though Imran claimed that he had made that statement only casually, few were impressed by this apparent insensitivity to the Kashmir problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan

http://www.the-week.com/23mar02/cover.htm

 

[Tony Blade]

The first of these statements came during an India Pakistan match in Sharjah where Imran remarked, "Let's settle the Kashmir issue over the cricket match". Though Imran claimed that he had made that statement only casually, few were impressed by this apparent insensitivity to the Kashmir problem.

Yea, he was hardly serious when he said that.

 

[social]

And regularity is all you can harp on. Its an argument which essentially equates to Aus-Bong having a great rivalry if they played regularly.

Aussies play with bongs very regularly.

 

[Sanz]

Yea, he was hardly serious when he said that.

Lightly ? A Pakistani cricketer making statements over Kashmir can never be considered light. Imran's Claim (that he said it lightly) came after he became a politician. I clearly remember Imran making such statements in 80s and he never said then that it was said lightly.

 

[Deja moo]

Imran made these comments as cricketer not as politician. But I dont expect you to remember that. Not to forget the fact that you used Botham's one statement to declare Ashes as a result of Master-Convicts thing yet even refuse to acknowledge that Ind-Pak have any jingoistic rivalry despite quoting two Pakistani legends. Do you remember SRT's statement he made after the pak match in the world cup or even that has dissappeared from your radar ?

What SRT statements ? And yes, Imran is/was a politician. Any player who uses the first few moments after a World Cup triumph to promote his Cancer hospital of all things is nothing but a master of manipulation. How can one forget the incredulous 'what the heck is he on about?' expressions on the faces of those Pakistani players ? And you should also make up your mind as to the reasons why the past few Ind-Pak series have been so well received. First you blame the popularity on the 'Friendship' series hype, then you blame it on the 'jingoism'. So which is it ? Were those Indians and Pakistanis in the stadia filled with love or hatred ? Or do the factors keep changing to suit the argument at that particular point ?

You can continue live in your world of Ifs and Buts..the fact will remain that Australia and Bangladesh dont play every 2 years and rivalry is much more than regularity..look at the traditions, contests in the 125 yeas of ashes. Something an Ind-Pak series cant match.

Rivalry is nothing without competition. Don't confuse it with tradition/history as you have been doing all along. If you ask which series has more history or tradition, the answer is definitely the ashes. But do not misconceive what a rivalry is. Eight consecutive series of one side rolling over and playing dead is not a rivalry by any stretch of imagination. A rivalry isn't forever. It needs to be maintained.

 

[Deja moo]

Aussies play with bongs very regularly.

hallelujah! We have a rivalry! We have the missing piece.

 

[Deja moo]

Yes, He repeatedly said that in 80s.

Controversial statements
Imran Khan is known for making a few politically charged statements that have raised eyebrows even when he was the captain of the Pakistan team and later in his role as a politician. The first of these statements came during an India Pakistan match in Sharjah where Imran remarked, "Let's settle the Kashmir issue over the cricket match". Though Imran claimed that he had made that statement only casually, few were impressed by this apparent insensitivity to the Kashmir problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan

http://www.the-week.com/23mar02/cover.htm

There you have it.

 

[luckyeddie]

Aussies play with bongs very regularly.

*pass*

 

[Fusion]

Lightly ? A Pakistani cricketer making statements over Kashmir can never be considered light. Imran's Claim (that he said it lightly) came after he became a politician. I clearly remember Imran making such statements in 80s and he never said then that it was said lightly.

Common Sanz, do you really believe that Imran wanted to settle the Kashmir issue over a cricket match?!? He was obviously making a (bad and insensitive) joke.

 

[Sanz]

What SRT statements ?

Something along the lines of :- "We have beaten them four times in World Cup and that should prove a point". I dont remember SRT making such statements against any other country.

And yes, Imran is/was a politician. Any player who uses the first few moments after a World Cup triumph to promote his Cancer hospital of all things is nothing but a master of manipulation. How can one forget the incredulous 'what the heck is he on about?' expressions on the faces of those Pakistani players ?

Imran became a politician after retiring from cricket. And I dont know how promoting a charitable cancer Hospital makes him a politician. No one had problem with his raising cancer issue but with the fact that he didn't mention his players in his speech. Get your facts right before making false claims.

And you should also make up your mind as to the reasons why the past few Ind-Pak series have been so well received. First you blame the popularity on the 'Friendship' series hype, then you blame it on the 'jingoism'. So which is it ? Were those Indians and Pakistanis in the stadia filled with love or hatred ? Or do the factors keep changing to suit the argument at that particular point ?

One last time :- Now a days India Pak are playing more because of peace waves or Hindustan Pakistan bhai bhai thing, the day it stops we will stop playing for another 'God-knows-how-many-freakin' years. As for the Love/hate between the Pakistanis and Indians in the stadiums...which stadium you were talking about ? Last I saw, there were more security people than spectators. So much for the popularity and rivalry.

Rivalry is nothing without competition. Don't confuse it with tradition/history as you have been doing all along. If you ask which series has more history or tradition, the answer is definitely the ashes. But do not misconceive what a rivalry is. Eight consecutive series of one side rolling over and playing dead is not a rivalry by any stretch of imagination. A rivalry isn't forever. It needs to be maintained.

And Rivalry is nothing without history, tradition, memorable performances either. you cant say that we play one series in 10 freaking years and we have a rivalry. Rivalry is a combination of all that you mentioned. And if you look at Ashes, it has been fairly competitive in its 125 years and English were not afraid of preparing sporting pitches, their stadiums were not emptyduring all those mediocre years... Go take a look and tell us which series had more memorable performances, Ind-Pak or Ashes ?

Pop Quiz - Do you think India-Pak have a rivalry in ODIs ?

 

[Sanz]

There you have it.

And the point is ?? He was still a cricketer when he made that statement. It was a politically charged statement but It didn't make him the Prime Minister of Pakistan.

 

[luckyeddie]

And the point is ?? He was still a cricketer when he made that statement. It was a politically charged statement but It didn't make him the Prime Minister of Pakistan.

It was a politically-charged atmosphere full stop.

To the rest of the world, it looked around the time as though the protagonists might end up playing 'catch' with nukes - a game of cricket was a far more sensible approach.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

*pass*

*passes back*

 

[luckyeddie]

*passes back*

*bogarts*

(I guess the flames have died down to just a tasty, aromatic and satisfying smouldering).

 

[Deja moo]

Something along the lines of :- "We have beaten them four times in World Cup and that should prove a point". I dont remember SRT making such statements against any other country.

Could it be because it gives him great pleasure when India beats Pakistan ? And theres also the small point why he cannot make a similar statement against another country for one reason.. India havent beaten any other major nation 4 times in World cups while he has being playing He can't claim otherwise, can he?

Imran became a politician after retiring from cricket. And I dont know how promoting a charitable cancer Hospital makes him a politician. No one had problem with his raising cancer issue but with the fact that he didn't mention his players in his speech. Get your facts right before making false claims.

Whole world watching, magical moment for his country = publicity = mucho funding for hospital. He doesnt have to don khadi for it to be more apparent.

One last time :- Now a days India Pak are playing more because of peace waves or Hindustan Pakistan bhai bhai thing, the day it stops we will stop playing for another 'God-knows-how-many-freakin' years. As for the Love/hate between the Pakistanis and Indians in the stadiums...which stadium you were talking about ? Last I saw, there were more security people than spectators. So much for the popularity and rivalry.

So, it was jingoism, but it was also a bhai bhai thing, huh? These subcontinentals can't make up their minds, can they ? And Sanz, you're forgetting the Television audience again

And Rivalry is nothing without history, tradition, memorable performances either. you cant say that we play one series in 10 freaking years and we have a rivalry. Rivalry is a combination of all that you mentioned. And if you look at Ashes, it has been fairly competitive in its 125 years and English were not afraid of preparing sporting pitches, their stadiums were not emptyduring all those mediocre years... Go take a look and tell us which series had more memorable performances, Ind-Pak or Ashes ?

Thats the problem in your reasoning. You mention this last Ind-Pak series with its dead pitches, but fail to mention Bodyline, assuming that Ashes cricket has been hunky dory all along. And you also assume that a rivalry once created, stays that way no matter what. It doesn't. Tradition may stay, but rivalry needs the competition to stay alive. and the Ashes has a lot of ground to regain before one is assured that the rivalry has resumed.

Pop Quiz - Do you think India-Pak have a rivalry in ODIs ?

Of course they don't Pakistan have always been a better One day side than India. Well, not as bad as England suffering 8 consecutive Ashes losses to Australia, but bad nevertheless.

 

[Deja moo]

And the point is ?? He was still a cricketer when he made that statement. It was a politically charged statement but It didn't make him the Prime Minister of Pakistan.

So you think that cricketers always stick to cricket when they open their mouth ? A political statement made by a cricketer still remains a political statement. Lehmann, the cricketer referring to Sri Lankans as black c**** still remains a racist statement even tough he isn't a fully paid up member of the KKK.

 

[Sanz]

So you think that cricketers always stick to cricket when they open their mouth ? A political statement made by a cricketer still remains a political statement. Lehmann, the cricketer referring to Sri Lankans as black c**** still remains a racist statement even tough he isn't a fully paid up member of the KKK.

Exactly. Just because Imran made a politically charged statement doesn't make him a politician. Botham making a 'convict' statement doesn't makes ashes a 'Master-convict' rivalry.

Thanks for arguing my point. I hope I dont have to explain it again.