Mitchell Starc vs Brett Lee (red-ball tests)

[OverratedSanity]

Red ball day tests only:

Mitchell Starc: 81 matches, 302 wickets, avg 30.14, SR 52.11
Brett Lee: 76 matches, 310 wickets, avg 30.81, SR 53.3

Both bullies some awful batting lineups in there too. Remove WI and SL and Starc's average shoots up to 33.32

 

[Spark]

Lee, marginally, mostly on the back of that brief period where he was the bonafide attack leader (something I don't think Starc has ever really had) and did really well. Had his body stood up for another few seasons he'd be held in a lot higher regard tbh, he was a vastly better Test bowler right at the end of his career than he was for most of it.

 

[Rob Wesley]

What are pink ball stats for Cummins, Hazelwood and Starc?

 

[sayon basak]

What are pink ball stats for Cummins, Hazelwood and Starc?

Starc kills that.

 

[Rob Wesley]

I think it is unfair to Starc if we exclude SL in SL. Reason behind it is in the series where he destroyed SL in SL in 2016, Aus lost that series and other Aussie pacers were poor. So, Starc was the saving grace for them. I will not discount SL.

As for Windies, I think Hazelwood bashed Windies himself. Wait, let me do some analysis and show some revealing stats for Hazelwood too. We will remove Windies, remove pink ball tests and compare.

 

[Coronis]

Lee, marginally, mostly on the back of that brief period where he was the bonafide attack leader (something I don't think Starc has ever really had) and did really well. Had his body stood up for another few seasons he'd be held in a lot higher regard tbh, he was a vastly better Test bowler right at the end of his career than he was for most of it.

Yeah once Johnson began to fade I’m not sure you could call either of Hazlewood or Starc the leader.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Also, Starc is still a good bowler in Asia. His bowling is average outside Asia except pink ball tests and the period where he used sandpaper suspiciously and got some success in NZ and SA first test 2018.

Here are records in Asia:-

Starc 17 matches 52 wkts @30
Cummins 11 matches 31 wkts @29.8
Hazelwood 9 matches 16 wkts @39

Look, Starc has higher WPM than both and average is about same as Cummins who seems to be happy skipping tours of Asia.

 

[Johan]

Lee for me in red balls, same stats, tougher era.

 

[Qlder]

Why would you take out 13 pink ball tests from Starc just because he was good at bowling in them (took 74 wkts). To me that is the same as taking out Brett Lee"s 13 tests in South Africa and West Indies which obviously suited him as he took 62 wkts.

 

[Johan]

Why would you take out 13 pink ball tests from Starc just because he was good at bowling in them (took 74 wkts). To me that is the same as taking out Brett Lee"s 13 tests in South Africa and West Indies which obviously suited him as he took 62 wkts.

because Lee never got the pink ball on the recent Australian greentops, so we're just comparing their red ball output which both used.

 

[Rob Wesley]

I have some more stats in Asia:-

Brett Lee 9 matches, 15 wkts, Avg 61
Mitchell Starc 17 matches, 52 wkts, Avg 30
Josh Hazelwood 9 matches, 16 wkts, Avg 39
Mitchell Johnson 12 matches, 33 wkts, Avg 40

Starc wins comprehensively.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Why would you take out 13 pink ball tests from Starc just because he was good at bowling in them (took 74 wkts). To me that is the same as taking out Brett Lee"s 13 tests in South Africa and West Indies which obviously suited him as he took 62 wkts.

The pink ball is a recent invention which bowlers of previous eras didn't have access to. It's a very different game to day cricket imo.

 

[Rob Wesley]

The pink ball is a recent invention which bowlers of previous eras didn't have access to. It's a very different game to day cricket imo.

look at stats in Asia.

Starc beats Lee, Johnson, Hazelwood three bowlers of three different era convincingly.

 

[Johan]

I have some more stats in Asia:-

Brett Lee 9 matches, 15 wkts, Avg 61
Mitchell Starc 17 matches, 52 wkts, Avg 30
Josh Hazelwood 9 matches, 16 wkts, Avg 39
Mitchell Johnson 12 matches, 33 wkts, Avg 40

Starc wins comprehensively.

Starc has done better in Sri Lanka, Lee in New Zealand and South Africa, this isn't new information

 

[Spark]

look at stats in Asia.

Starc beats Lee, Johnson, Hazelwood three bowlers of three different era convincingly.

There's more to cricket than "stats in Asia" and Starc's twin BGT failures at home count pretty heavily against him.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Starc has done better in Sri Lanka, Lee in New Zealand and South Africa, this isn't new information

Starc in NZ also

 

[Rob Wesley]

There's more to cricket than "stats in Asia" and Starc's twin BGT failures at home count pretty heavily against him.

Asia is bigger than twin BGT series.

Starc would play 10 series in Asia in his career. That’s 10 vs 2.

 

[Johan]

does it really matter when Starc only did well in one country in Asia and got destroyed in other two?

 

[Spark]

Asia is bigger than twin BGT series.

Starc would play 10 series in Asia in his career. That’s 10 vs 2.

No it isn't. Failing like that at home is flat out unacceptable. It's your bread and butter; you might not be suited to certain conditions overseas and that's fine, that's a selection question, but if you can't be trusted in big home series against strong opposition then that calls into question your fundamental value proposition as a strike fast bowler in Australia. That's why you exist.

 

[Silver Silva]

I'll take Starc because Lee was really disappointing vs big rivals England in Ashes