Jasprit Bumrah vs Malcolm Marshall

[DrWolverine]

India should not be risk him and give him ample rest

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Don't see him lasting 5 tests.

Nah Morkel confirmed only a cramp. He pulled up once like that vs SL last year at Asia Cup also

 

[Coronis]

For 100 years India did not have a single great bowler. And there is a chance they may end up with the bowler having the best bowling average of all time.

How would he manage that? He currently ranks at 15th, behind 2 other current players.

 

[DrWolverine]

How would he manage that? He currently ranks at 15th, behind 2 other current players.

I usually take 50 Tests or 200 wickets as the minimum criteria

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Don't see him lasting 5 tests.

That's my biggest gripe with Bumrah ie his durability. Why rest him?? Oh because he may get injured. No. To be the goat, he needs to take care of himself and power through.

Now if India somehow win 2 more and are 3-1 up going into the last test, fine. Ditto if they're 1-3 down. Otherwise, he needs to play the whole series assuming there's still a chance to win/draw by the final test.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

What's kinda missed is that one, he was express. Harder to maintain longer careers.

And two, and somewhat connected, is that he squeezed a lot of cricket into those years. Because there was such demand for the team to tour, it was a lot of wear on his body. So yeah, by '90 he was done.

And even guys like Wasim who had longer careers, when examined it's still condensed to a prime. The issue though than some have with Wasim isn't the overall numbers, it's the performances vs the better teams and the percentage of lower order bats and stuff like that.

I dont know if you know/recall this but one of the reasons for Marshalls early retirement was typical WI politics. The thought process was once Viv retired, I believe Haynes (Bajan just like Malcolm) was supposed to be in line to be captain. As you know, the captaincy went to Richie. Plus typical inter island squabble which turned Malcolm off, hence his early retirement. He very easily could've played a few more years (he played other levels of cricket for Natal and Hampshire) with the decent returns.

 

[DrWolverine]

I dont know if you know/recall this but one of the reasons for Marshalls early retirement was typical WI politics. The thought process was once Viv retired, I believe Haynes (Bajan just like Malcolm) was supposed to be in line to be captain. As you know, the captaincy went to Richie. Plus typical inter island squabble which turned Malcolm off, hence his early retirement. He very easily could've played a few more years (he played other levels of cricket for Natal and Hampshire) with the decent returns.

Do you think his early retirement protected his numbers?

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Bowling average of less than 25 in Ind/Pak/SL(away)
Minimum : 25 wickets View attachment 42702

See, Holding and Roberts above Marshall is misleading. Marshall had one bad series in Asia (India )in his debut series playing for the 2nd WI team (the main team was playing WSC) . Otherwise, he was always great in the 4 other series he played there. Note, that he never played vs SL aka the minnows of his time.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Do you think his early retirement protected his numbers?

Yes and no. Here's why. Let's say he plays until around early 1995 (he last played for Natal in 1996). Between his actual retirement in 1991 and early 1995 at age 36 we would have played:

1 test RSA (h)
5 test Aus (a)
3 test Pak (h)
1 test SL (a)
5 test Eng (h)
3 test Ind (a)
2 test NZ (a)

That puts him at 100 tests or so. Realistically though, at his age Marshall likely ain't playing all those tests. But I don't see any opposition there that would stop him from going at say 4 wpm and an overall average under 25 for that time-frame. Add to that, he would be bowling behind Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop (in and out the team). Those who say bowling as part of a strong unit helps, are right in the sense that it can help out bowlers not quite at their peak/fit. Respect to the likes of Hadlee and Murali.

So I can see Marshall ending with 440 odd wickets in 90 something tests at an average a little over 21 and a sr still in the 47 ish range. Still one of the 3 greatest pacers ever.

 

[h_hurricane]

My memory of Marshall is really only Benson and Hedges series 1991-92 and 92 WC. He was unpenetrative in both those series. He looked done at the stage. Of course it was a different format and didn't follow his FC stats in the last part of his career, but I still think his wpm would have taken a beating, not so much his average, if he played 3-4 more years in tests. He looked so down in pace that WC.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

My memory of Marshall is really only Benson and Hedges series 1991-92 and 92 WC. He was unpenetrative in both those series. He looked done at the stage. Of course it was a different format and didn't follow his FC stats in the last part of his career, but I still think his wpm would have taken a beating, not so much his average, if he played 3-4 more years in tests. He looked so down in pace that WC.

Yeah this. His wpm would have likely suffered but coming on 1st change behind Ambrose and Bishop vs the teams we actually played that 20.94 average isn't moving much, nor is his SR.

 

[kyear2]

I dont know if you know/recall this but one of the reasons for Marshalls early retirement was typical WI politics. The thought process was once Viv retired, I believe Haynes (Bajan just like Malcolm) was supposed to be in line to be captain. As you know, the captaincy went to Richie. Plus typical inter island squabble which turned Malcolm off, hence his early retirement. He very easily could've played a few more years (he played other levels of cricket for Natal and Hampshire) with the decent returns.

They cleaned house, deciding it was time for the next generation, Greenidge and Dujon being part of the purge.

It would be an understatement to say that it didn't go down well in the Caribbean.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah this. His wpm would have likely suffered but coming on 1st change behind Ambrose and Bishop vs the teams we actually played that 20.94 average isn't moving much, nor is his SR.

He seemed out of it towards the end.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

That's ODIs where Malcolm was never anything special. Look at the teams we played and our lineup. And the fact that sir Malcolm was still decent in 4 day cricket. He'd be less effective going forward but only slightly so bowling behind Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop (when available) and Patterson/Benjamins. Imo his average wouldn't be affected much, just his wpm would.

 

[subshakerz]

That's ODIs where Malcolm was never anything special. Look at the teams we played and our lineup. And the fact that sir Malcolm was still decent in 4 day cricket. He'd be less effective going forward but only slightly so bowling behind Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop (when available) and Patterson/Benjamins. Imo his average wouldn't be affected much, just his wpm would.

This really suggests that Marshalls exceptional averages are more due to the attack he played in.

 

[DrWolverine]

This really suggests that Marshalls exceptional averages are more due to the attack he played in.

Playing alongside great bowlers will be helpful. You may pick lower wickets but there is more pressure on the batsman.

A batsman playing NZ will tend to take less risks and play safely against the legendary Hadlee and go after the other bowlers since it is easier.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

This really suggests that Marshalls exceptional averages are more due to the attack he played in.

It suggests Marshall was at the end of his fast bowling career and like anyone at that age was somewhat in decline. I already said in an earlier post, that yes being part of a great attack helps but only really if that bowler is unfit/declining.

Peak fully fit Marshall would've been lethal whether he had a great attack around him or not. See Marshall in Pakistan in 1986 and in India in '83. In India, only Holding was the other constant great. In Pakistan in '86, a young Walsh and Marshall still cleaned house. Look at the example of Ambrose who's average hardly moved even as WI were in general decline. Being part of a great attack helps out lesser bowlers not the spearheads.

 

[DrWolverine]

Look at the example of Ambrose who's average hardly moved even as WI were in general decline.

Ambrose’s averaged from 20.99 to 21.99 for 60 matches(40th Test to 98th test - his final match).

 

[DrWolverine]

Bowlers like Marshall, Steyn, Donald are different. With age/injuries, they lose their speed and their ability to get wickets and their record may suffer.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Bowlers like Marshall, Steyn, Donald are different. With age/injuries, they lose their speed and their ability to get wickets and their record may suffer.

Yeah but I already said that. I wrote that he'd likely average under 25 but his wpm would suffer over the 20 tests that would take him to 100 tests (and 36 years).His overall average would still be around 21 sr around 47, wpm above 4.5 and he'd still be sub 25 home and away vs all comers.