Don't think you've even touched the real heart of what was discussed.
Even in his last 52 tests where he averaged over 50, his output never came close to that of a 50 averaging batsman.
Compare the runs score to his teammate. He played 2 more matches, 2 less innings and 1000 less runs, and 13 more not outs.
That's not even touching the sole hundred that came in a victory, which was not what one would label overly impactful. Two came in save jobs in draws and the rest were garnered in high scoring draws.
That still doesn't get into the fact that his numbers didn't fully soar to give him the average he ended up with, until he basically stopped bowling.
Sobers's role was never about the numbers. He bowled countless overs with the old ball to defensive fields when he was the best or one of the two only viable options with the ball. He was the stop bowler, who probably bowled more overs in unfavorable conditions than any non spinner in the history of the game.
We had a discussion a few days ago, about how 5th bowlers are rated and what their primary responsibilities are.
It was something along the lines that just bowling the overs, allowing for the intended rotation to be completed, while not being taken apart is the objective.
Yes, both of their numbers are quite misleading, but there's no doubt which had more impact of their team and more valuable to how the team was run. One also came in during the best conditions to perform later in the order, while the other was blowing those overs, under those conditions.
And none of this is to say that one was far ahead of the other in said secondary discipline, it's very close. I just think that Sober's volume and grunt work is slightly ahead.
And as for the overall discussion. You constantly slag on Kallis to say that he wasn't recognized as one of the great all rounders until right before his retirement.
You're the peer ratings guy, when during Imran's career was he ever recognized or mentioned as being where this discussion places him. When exactly during his career was he ever discussed as being right up there behind Bradman. I would say, but we both know the answer. It was always the great all rounders from the 80's, that's how they were discussed and for some period of time it was Botham (probably unfairly, but yeah, Ashes) who was seen as the best. But yeah, that discussion never happened. I'm not saying it's definitive, but it's an argument that you consistently throw out against Kallis.
And finally and equally pertinent to this argument. With the Steyn conversations the last week or so, been watching a lot of him, highlights, extended cuts, batsmen who scored against him etc... Those who continue to say that slip cordons aren't impactful beyond some after though, and not comparable to other secondary skills, should sincerely take a second look with fresh eyes. Having that guy at 2nd (well the entire cordon, but especially) is just about as crucial to teams as your no. 8 and 5th bowler.
And again, not saying Imran wasn't an elite ATG , he definitely was... he's also not a top 5 guy for me either, that's all.
