England bowling

[Go_India]

What do u guys and linda think about the english bowling , it seems to get better but still there are young players in the team who need to prove themselves...i like anderson, i think if he gets some experience he will be a very good bowler for england.

 

[V Reddy]

They have a good bowling at the moment with Anderson, Kirtley, Harmison , Hoggard,etc,. and a decent spin attack too. Like you have pointed out they are inexperienced now but they all have talent and are worth persisting.

BTW, you like England very much, don't you?

 

[marc71178]

It's an interesting one.

We seem to have a large number of players all at very similar levels of ability competing for spots.

Quite fortunate seeing as half of them at any one point seem to be injured!

 

[JohnnyA]

One thing actually pleased me about the recent test match. I noticed that both Flintoff and Hoggard have begun to cut the ball. This is after all the the delivery that has made both Pollock and McGrath such a threat on even dead wickets.

English bowlers too often rely on either swing or seam. They're not prepared to work at getting the movement thmselves ... and this is essential on flat test match wickets.

I'd rank the current crop of English bowlers:

Harmison (all the physical attributes to be "great" ... not sure he has the head for it though)
Anderson (bristling with talent ... maybe over confident?)
Flintoff (needs to develop leg cutter ... but showing progress in this regard)
Jones ("perhaps" the most telented of the lot)
Hoggard (still too one dimensional ... needs to work at game to keep place)

Then the rest in a pile after ...

The future's healthy for England if they can keep them fit. And they will need them all the way test cricket has become a year round activity.

 

[Richard]

Bowlers who have played Test-cricket for England in the last 24 months:
Richard Dawson - worst Test selection I've ever seen. Not even in Yorkshire's best First-Class XI.
Stephen Harmison - debated to death, no point reiterating any arguments. Injuries: calf has caused untold trouble in the last 5 months (missed 5 Tests due to it).
Simon Jones - First-Class record anything but impressive, called-up anyway, took 5 wickets at over 32, bowled too much on debut and injured side (missed a theoretical 3 Tests) then we all know about that horrific injury that could so easily have been prevented by someone telling him how to slide on Australian outfields (missed a theoretical 19 Tests)
Andrew Flintoff - bowled into the ground by both captains of his side, since he started bowling decent spells. This despite never looking like taking many wickets. Tests missed through injury: 9.
Ashley Giles - anyone who allowed themselves to see the real picture would see that he's a good bowler in conditions like those in which he recenty took 8 for 132 and useless anywhere else. Hasn't had injury problems for the last 12 months, but missed 4 Tests with a broken wrist and before that achillies-tendon caused 5 Tests to be missed in just over 5 months.
Martin Bicknell - earned his selection about 50 times over, did well in his last innings and then got left-out again because there were so many younger options. Accuracy not what it was, but still deadly with a swinging and seaming ball.
James Kirtley - after finally being given his chance, took wickets at less than 20 and then... yes, you guessed it, missed a Test through injury and lost his place.
James Anderson - picked too soon, selection almost inevitably backfired, then missed 3 Tests due to unrelated injuries.
Kabir Ali - took 5 wickets at less than 28 in his only Test, then got dropped because there are so many options.
Richard Johnson - got an easy ride in his first 2 Tests, but took full toll. Suffered huge injury problems all his career, didn't do quite so well in First Sri Lanka Test.
Matthew Hoggard - never been consistent in his Test-career. Bowled OK on a few occasions, such as in first-innings of First New Zealand Test and Bangladesh series. Injured for most of last summer.
Gareth Batty - looked distinctly ordinary in Bangladesh, managed to get 5 poor strokes in The First Sri Lanka Test and as a result his wickets came at only just over 30 - hardly impressive in just about the best spinners' conditions you can realistically conjure-up. Of course, because he's "young" (26) like Dawson people are hugely reluctant to criticise him, but any lack of criticism is silly as IMO he is just hugely out of his depth at international level. Also somewhat over-committed - celebrating every wicket as if it were a ticket to World control.
Alex Tudor - bowled well on 2 or 3 occasions in his Test-career, was terrible in recent Tests and last FC season. Undoubtedly can bowl well in seaming conditions, but accuracy has always left something to be desired and has never been very effective in non-seaming conditions. Had huge injury problems up to 2002, seemed to have shaken them off and then they returned last year.
Darren Gough - had a longer career than any of the above, proven a little more consistent but had just started to become a little inconsistent again, and having always been injured lots was struck-down once and for all and his Test-career was finished.
Andy Caddick - another with a long career but has had just one consistent period (New Zealand series 1999 to halfway through Second Pakistan Test 2001). In 1993-1998 period very inconsistent and similarly so after 2001. Has recently suffered huge problems with back injuries and it will be tough for him to get his place back.
Dominic Cork - just 3 really good spells in his Test career, 1995-6, early-season 1998 and 2000. Has always had problems with consistency in an inexplicable inability to swing the ball sometimes. Not always used very well 2 summers ago and didn't bowl last season as he can. Test-career, sadly, probably over.
Craig White - had a very good period 2000-2001, then... yes, struck down by injury. Never been quite the 90mph merchant since then, but was still clearly a good bowler. Then hit by injury again, Test-career probably over.
Please forgive me if I've missed any, and don't hesitate to name them.

 

[marc71178]

Pretty comprehensive list that!

 

[Rich2001]

It's an interesting one.

We seem to have a large number of players all at very similar levels of ability competing for spots.

Quite fortunate seeing as half of them at any one point seem to be injured!

I agree totally with Marc here, England have gone from producing little to so many options basically overnight..you think Anderson, Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard etc are all good and with the likes of (hopfully a pre-injury) S.Jones and co to return that things can only get better

 

[mavric41]

The problem with the England side is that no one is given an extended go to prove themselves. Having your place secure in the team gives you confidence and allows you to relax and play your best cricket. Even with injuries there is too much chopping and changing. As evidenced with the Australian side there is an extablished pecking order (although Bracken seems to have leapfrogged Williams through good one day performances)

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The problem with the England side is that no one is given an extended go to prove themselves. Having your place secure in the team gives you confidence and allows you to relax and play your best cricket. Even with injuries there is too much chopping and changing. As evidenced with the Australian side there is an extablished pecking order (although Bracken seems to have leapfrogged Williams through good one day performances)

That's not always the case. Sometimes players perform better when they know that they're place is under pressure. This takes away the complacency. Case in point, Wavell Hinds.

 

[JohnnyA]

The problem with the England side is that no one is given an extended go to prove themselves. Having your place secure in the team gives you confidence and allows you to relax and play your best cricket. Even with injuries there is too much chopping and changing. As evidenced with the Australian side there is an extablished pecking order (although Bracken seems to have leapfrogged Williams through good one day performances)

IMO the current players are getting plenty of opportunities. They're just getting injured too often. I think if they're all fit and playing on a regular (non-subcontinental) wicket, it would be Harmison, Flintoff, Giles, and 2 off Hoggard or Anderson or Jones.

The batting sucks with the insane "enforced" retirement of Stewie, but that's their best bowling lineup. Unless England find a wicket keeper who can average 30, Flintoff is wasted at number 6 in the lineup with no protection behind him.

It's such a shame, that when England finally start finding some talent, they waste it:

Vaughn ... develops to be one of the best batter in the world ... lumbered with captainsy ... batting declines

Flintoff ... starts scoring some crucial runs at number 7 ... forced to bat at 6 ... which involves different responsibilities (anchoring etc) ... negating his natural game.

UNLESS at least two of those bowlers become marque players (like McGrath), thus allowing England to field an extra batsman, England's batting will contnue to cripple their chances against the best teams in the world. The long term prospects with that batting line-up are not good.

Of course I believe Stewie could have played until the next ashes series and beyond (such was his fitness and desire) ... which could have placed England in prime position to unseat the Aussies as the best team in the world.

But then, what do I know ...

 

[marc71178]

Vaughn ... develops to be one of the best batter in the world ... lumbered with captainsy ... batting declines

His relatively bad run started before he was made captain though.

 

[badgerhair]

His relatively bad run started before he was made captain though.

Yes, the 156 at Edgbaston in the match immediately before he was made captain was distinct evidence that he was on the slide, wasn't it?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Tim]

Stephen Fleming's batting went way down hill after he got the captaincy, he's started to up his average again now though...but it's been 5 or 6 years since he became captain.

 

[badgerhair]

The problem with the England side is that no one is given an extended go to prove themselves. Having your place secure in the team gives you confidence and allows you to relax and play your best cricket. Even with injuries there is too much chopping and changing. As evidenced with the Australian side there is an extablished pecking order (although Bracken seems to have leapfrogged Williams through good one day performances)

I'd agree with JohnnyA here. I think we know what our best attack would be, if fit, but we have been forced to pick other people because of injuries.

If fit, we'd be picking Anderson, Jones, Harmison and Giles with Flintoff as fourth seamer, although there's still quite a problem in finding the guy who will come in instead of one of the pacers on the odd occasion when two spinners will be important. I thought Batty did OK at Galle without making me enthusiastic, and another few games will make it clear one way or the other. Personally, I think it's about time Brown was resurrected. He seems to have finally taken on board the idea that taking lots of wickets is the best argument in his favour, rather than pointing out how talented he may well be whether or not it produces results.

But the over-arching point is, as marc said, that we have a whole bunch of plausible candidates. And we only need half of them to make it to be well-equipped to deal with the odd injury.

I don't quite see our lot reaching the kind of standard set by WI 20 years ago, but I can easily see us being in a similar position of having five or six bowlers competing for three or four places, which can only be healthy.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[deeps]

Wat do u guys think of Alex Tudor? He has lots and lots of talent,can handle the bat,and can turn the match england's way very quickly...He is inconsistent,but that's something the coaching staff should b working on...With experience,he has potential to become a very very good fast bowler

 

[Rich2001]

His relatively bad run started before he was made captain though.

I tend to agree with Marc here, ok so the captain's job may be a factor, but at the end of the day M.Vaughan had a hell of a year to follow, he was always going to have a poorer one.

When you look at it though... like I said it was a hard act to follow but is 769 runs @ 40.47 really that bad of a 2003 so far?

And ok since he became captain he has still avg'ed 30 which isn't as bad as alot make out, sure it's not world beatting but the way alot of people go on you would think he has just re-created AA's efforts of 7 ducks in a row :saint:

Also note that Vaughy is a opening batsman, meaning if England bat 1st he is the very first person on the pitch at the start of the match, he hasn't any long days setting fields or decisons over who will bowl next or any tough 1st scores to chase down etc etc... So that indicates more a run of bad form rather than extra pressure... and at he has only captained England 7 times (Facing 2/3 of the worlds best bowlers in that time)

He will be back to his very best soon!

 

[JohnnyA]

I tend to agree with Marc here, ok so the captain's job may be a factor, but at the end of the day M.Vaughan had a hell of a year to follow, he was always going to have a poorer one.

When you look at it though... like I said it was a hard act to follow but is 769 runs @ 40.47 really that bad of a 2003 so far?

And ok since he became captain he has still avg'ed 30 which isn't as bad as alot make out, sure it's not world beatting but the way alot of people go on you would think he has just re-created AA's efforts of 7 ducks in a row :saint:

Also note that Vaughy is a opening batsman, meaning if England bat 1st he is the very first person on the pitch at the start of the match, he hasn't any long days setting fields or decisons over who will bowl next or any tough 1st scores to chase down etc etc... So that indicates more a run of bad form rather than extra pressure... and at he has only captained England 7 times (Facing 2/3 of the worlds best bowlers in that time)

He will be back to his very best soon!

I've always hated that way of looking at things. So what if Grame Hick average 40 between 1996 and 1999. He was still a mediocre test match batsman. If an average of 40-45 is your peak, then you'll be lucky to have a career average over 35.

Butcher is another who keeps reminding us about his 40 average over the past year or two. So what?

For the top test match batters, their peak years should have an average in the 60's and 70's, and your down years should be averaging 35-40.

I agree that Vaughny is class ... and class will always prevail. But if England continue to stuggle, he may be wayed under by the pressure of leading a weak England team. Despite all the positive aspects of the team, our batting has been severely compromised by the retirment of Stewie. I don't see how it will improve unless we pick Freddy as a bowling all rounder (who bats at 7), and pick only 3 other bowlers.

Vaughn just has not looked the same patient player we saw in the summer of 2002 and last winter. He's gone shot crazy before playing himself in ... he did the opposite last year ... playing himself in slowly, and getting more dominant as the innings progressed. That shows his concentration just isn't there ... no doubt due to the captainsy. Maybe it will return whenever he gets more comfortable with the job ... here's hoping.

 

[marc71178]

Wat do u guys think of Alex Tudor?

Heartless, gutless and useless.

 

[raju]

For the top test match batters, their peak years should have an average in the 60's and 70's, and your down years should be averaging 35-40.

Absolutely agree. Some merchant on here is always banging on about how Ramprakash has such a wonderful average if you dont count some innings and subtract a few more because he was a bit poorly at the time. The bottom line is he and his ilk don't cut the mustard when the fur is flying (mixed metaphor alert). He has a good first chance average though so in theory that makes him better than some jammy chancer like Gilchrist or Hayden according to some pretty desperate voices.

On Tudor I always thought he looked good but as its transpired, like the man said, he has no heart or guts. Also picks up a hamstring quicker than Paulo di Canio before an away game in the north.

 

[luckyeddie]

Heartless, gutless and useless.

That good?