DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[Cabinet96]

de Villiers the number one AB confirmed. You love to see it.

 

[honestbharani]

Australia beat Pakistan in the semis; England beat India.

Oopsie.. Forgot them sweeps and reverse sweeps from Gatting. Still, beating either side in SC conditions in that era was no mean feat.

 

[ataraxia]

This is why RPI is not important IMO. Also, adjusted averages in hard eras like the 50s and 80s are pretty much the same as adjusted averages in the 00s. That's what really annoys me.

 

[ataraxia]

This is why RPI is not important IMO. Also, adjusted averages in hard eras like the 50s and 80s are pretty much the same as adjusted averages in the 00s. That's what really annoys me.

To prove it, DoG can you put Ponsford's and Woodfull's FC stats into the machine with a 50 SR for Ponsford and 40 SR for Woodfull and tell us where they rank? I suspect 2 and 3 despite them playing in a really easy era of Australian and Victorian flat-tracks.

 

[kyear2]

No way Chanders should be ahead of AB, Weeks is also somewhat questionable.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Chanders is #2 where he belongs imo

 

[Burgey]

I’ll have more to say about this later, but I’m afraid if you have a system in place which ranks the Saffer imposter ahead of TOTAB as a test player, or indeed anywhere in the top 50 let alone 25 test players of all time, then it’s deeply, deeply flawed. The man spent the first half of his career almost exclusively downhill skiing.

 

[Flem274*]

the whole countdown has had a 'doesnt matter who ir when, just how many' philosophy tbh. it's a good challenge to conventional cw wisdom even if i disagree with some of the rankings.

 

[Cabinet96]

I blame Ravi Jadeja

 

[Burgey]

I'm with Burgey, Pollock just behind Border just doesn't sit right. Has thrown the whole 100 out of whack

I was referring to de Villiers mate lol

 

[Days of Grace]

Did Jayasuria come up?

Ranked 110th (673 points)

 

[Days of Grace]

His impact has been fairly calculated here. See the non-home metric. What let him down, I feel, is his runs per innings, around 42. Very good in that metric but certainly not top tier.

By the way, how do we quantify impact ? It is an intangible metric isn't it ?

Exactly. This is a statistical exercise so players like Border who led their countries out of the doldrums or had other non-quantifiable qualities were always going to be undervalued. Even if I incorporated great innings or impact per innings based on my innings ratings system, he would finish even further down, since a lot of his great innings were in draws or losses. By the time Australia finally improved from 1989 onwards, Border was not needed as much.

Up until the 1989 Ashes, he averaged 52.15 (52.56) and 43.41 runs per innings.

From the 1989 Ashes onwards, he averaged 43.61 (46.43) and 36.51 runs per innings. Notice how much the average is adjusted downwards compared to pre-1989, indicative of the easier situations he found himself in as his teammates offered more support.

 

[Days of Grace]

This is why RPI is not important IMO. Also, adjusted averages in hard eras like the 50s and 80s are pretty much the same as adjusted averages in the 00s. That's what really annoys me.

That is patently not true. Here's a look at the adjusted averages of all batsmen ranked 24th to 100th ordered by the midpoint year of their career. The amount of adjustment to the original average is on the right.

C Hill 45.90 39.21 1.17
VT Trumper 45.29 39.05 1.16
GA Faulkner 49.11 40.79 1.20
HW Taylor 43.37 40.78 1.06
EH Hendren 43.72 47.64 0.92
SJ McCabe 45.25 48.21 0.94
B Mitchell 47.42 48.88 0.97
GA Headley 60.24 60.83 0.99
AD Nourse 52.91 53.81 0.98
DCS Compton 47.90 50.06 0.96
AR Morris 43.40 46.49 0.93
CL Walcott 53.06 56.68 0.94
RN Harvey 46.36 48.41 0.96
FMM Worrell 47.59 49.48 0.96
PBH May 46.55 46.77 1.00
TW Graveney 42.92 44.38 0.97
Hanif Mohammad 42.77 43.99 0.97
NC O'Neill 44.56 45.56 0.98
ER Dexter 45.60 47.89 0.95
MC Cowdrey 43.44 44.06 0.99
SM Nurse 45.76 47.60 0.96
RB Kanhai 46.01 47.53 0.97
EJ Barlow 44.58 45.75 0.97
WM Lawry 45.94 47.15 0.97
RG Pollock 60.35 60.97 0.99
RB Simpson 44.95 46.81 0.96
JH Edrich 42.34 43.54 0.97
DL Amiss 43.99 46.31 0.95
IM Chappell 41.15 42.42 0.97
G Boycott 46.57 47.72 0.98
KD Walters 47.01 48.26 0.97
CH Lloyd 45.68 46.67 0.98
GR Viswanath 41.13 41.93 0.98
Zaheer Abbas 42.06 44.79 0.94
CG Greenidge 43.37 44.72 0.97
DB Vengsarkar 40.75 42.13 0.97
Javed Miandad 49.34 52.57 0.94
GA Gooch 42.32 42.58 0.99
DI Gower 43.47 44.25 0.98
AR Border 49.36 50.56 0.98
MD Crowe 43.58 45.36 0.96
RB Richardson 43.91 44.39 0.99
DC Boon 41.80 43.65 0.96
Saleem Malik 41.67 43.70 0.95
M Azharuddin 42.49 45.04 0.94
PA de Silva 41.65 42.98 0.97
MA Taylor 41.22 43.50 0.95
Saeed Anwar 44.01 45.53 0.97
ME Waugh 40.77 41.82 0.97
A Flower 49.75 51.54 0.97
G Kirsten 42.78 45.27 0.95
GP Thorpe 43.93 44.66 0.98
DR Martyn 44.48 46.38 0.96
Inzamam-ul-Haq 48.21 50.16 0.96
JL Langer 42.99 45.68 0.94
ML Hayden 46.68 50.22 0.93
AC Gilchrist 44.64 47.60 0.94
Mohammad Yousuf 49.10 52.29 0.94
VVS Laxman 43.61 45.97 0.95
DPMD Jayawardene 46.24 49.84 0.93
SM Katich 43.08 46.00 0.94
V Sehwag 45.82 49.43 0.93
TT Samaraweera 45.04 48.77 0.92
CH Gayle 40.07 42.19 0.95
GC Smith 44.65 48.70 0.92
MEK Hussey 48.15 51.52 0.93
Misbah-ul-Haq 44.23 46.63 0.95
MJ Clarke 46.48 49.41 0.94
KP Pietersen 45.03 47.28 0.95
HM Amla 44.06 46.64 0.94
AN Cook 42.71 45.35 0.94
LRPL Taylor 44.65 47.18 0.95
AD Mathews 43.42 44.31 0.98
KS Williamson 48.92 52.21 0.94
CA Pujara 47.33 49.48 0.96
DA Warner 45.65 48.34 0.94
JE Root 47.48 48.55 0.98

For players whose midpoint in their career was in the 1980s and 1990s, the average adjustment is 0.97.

For players whose midpoint in their career was post 2000, the average adjustment is 0.94.

To prove it, DoG can you put Ponsford's and Woodfull's FC stats into the machine with a 50 SR for Ponsford and 40 SR for Woodfull and tell us where they rank? I suspect 2 and 3 despite them playing in a really easy era of Australian and Victorian flat-tracks.

I don't have the runs per wicket averages of any FC match in Australia from the interwar era. Nor do I have team ratings for first-class cricket. However, I think they would probably lose at least 10% of their average. If you score big runs on flat tracks then your average will be adjusted downwards in a big way. That's how the system works.

I base my adjustments on strength of opposition and pitch conditions. On an innings-by-innings basis.

 

[sunilz]

Please post the next player so that people can stop discussing Border . It is great that your methodology can distinguish between real batting average 50 and fake batting average 50 boosted by not outs.

 

[Logan]

Allan Border being placed among the Top 25 batsman of all time is fine. I don’t see what’s the big deal about it.

Great list so far and great effort by DoG.

 

[Coronis]

No statistical exercise is perfect, I think almost everyone here knows that, which is why we don’t judge players in any sport purely on stats. I don’t think X player above X player makes a methodology necessarily flawed, I doubt you could find a single statistical analysis where someone would agree with the placement of every batsman.

Border an excellent batsman and saved Australian cricket really. Great work DoG, keep it up. Can’t wait for the rest of the list.

 

[Burgey]

It’s a great effort by DoG, have never said otherwise. Enormous dedication to it.

And now he’s played his Xmas prank he can get back to the real rankings which will no doubt have Border at two behind bradman

 

[ataraxia]

That is patently not true. Here's a look at the adjusted averages of all batsmen ranked 24th to 100th ordered by the midpoint year of their career. The amount of adjustment to the original average is on the right.

C Hill 45.90 39.21 1.17
VT Trumper 45.29 39.05 1.16
GA Faulkner 49.11 40.79 1.20
HW Taylor 43.37 40.78 1.06
EH Hendren 43.72 47.64 0.92
SJ McCabe 45.25 48.21 0.94
B Mitchell 47.42 48.88 0.97
GA Headley 60.24 60.83 0.99
AD Nourse 52.91 53.81 0.98
DCS Compton 47.90 50.06 0.96
AR Morris 43.40 46.49 0.93
CL Walcott 53.06 56.68 0.94
RN Harvey 46.36 48.41 0.96
FMM Worrell 47.59 49.48 0.96
PBH May 46.55 46.77 1.00
TW Graveney 42.92 44.38 0.97
Hanif Mohammad 42.77 43.99 0.97
NC O'Neill 44.56 45.56 0.98
ER Dexter 45.60 47.89 0.95
MC Cowdrey 43.44 44.06 0.99
SM Nurse 45.76 47.60 0.96
RB Kanhai 46.01 47.53 0.97
EJ Barlow 44.58 45.75 0.97
WM Lawry 45.94 47.15 0.97
RG Pollock 60.35 60.97 0.99
RB Simpson 44.95 46.81 0.96
JH Edrich 42.34 43.54 0.97
DL Amiss 43.99 46.31 0.95
IM Chappell 41.15 42.42 0.97
G Boycott 46.57 47.72 0.98
KD Walters 47.01 48.26 0.97
CH Lloyd 45.68 46.67 0.98
GR Viswanath 41.13 41.93 0.98
Zaheer Abbas 42.06 44.79 0.94
CG Greenidge 43.37 44.72 0.97
DB Vengsarkar 40.75 42.13 0.97
Javed Miandad 49.34 52.57 0.94
GA Gooch 42.32 42.58 0.99
DI Gower 43.47 44.25 0.98
AR Border 49.36 50.56 0.98
MD Crowe 43.58 45.36 0.96
RB Richardson 43.91 44.39 0.99
DC Boon 41.80 43.65 0.96
Saleem Malik 41.67 43.70 0.95
M Azharuddin 42.49 45.04 0.94
PA de Silva 41.65 42.98 0.97
MA Taylor 41.22 43.50 0.95
Saeed Anwar 44.01 45.53 0.97
ME Waugh 40.77 41.82 0.97
A Flower 49.75 51.54 0.97
G Kirsten 42.78 45.27 0.95
GP Thorpe 43.93 44.66 0.98
DR Martyn 44.48 46.38 0.96
Inzamam-ul-Haq 48.21 50.16 0.96
JL Langer 42.99 45.68 0.94
ML Hayden 46.68 50.22 0.93
AC Gilchrist 44.64 47.60 0.94
Mohammad Yousuf 49.10 52.29 0.94
VVS Laxman 43.61 45.97 0.95
DPMD Jayawardene 46.24 49.84 0.93
SM Katich 43.08 46.00 0.94
V Sehwag 45.82 49.43 0.93
TT Samaraweera 45.04 48.77 0.92
CH Gayle 40.07 42.19 0.95
GC Smith 44.65 48.70 0.92
MEK Hussey 48.15 51.52 0.93
Misbah-ul-Haq 44.23 46.63 0.95
MJ Clarke 46.48 49.41 0.94
KP Pietersen 45.03 47.28 0.95
HM Amla 44.06 46.64 0.94
AN Cook 42.71 45.35 0.94
LRPL Taylor 44.65 47.18 0.95
AD Mathews 43.42 44.31 0.98
KS Williamson 48.92 52.21 0.94
CA Pujara 47.33 49.48 0.96
DA Warner 45.65 48.34 0.94
JE Root 47.48 48.55 0.98

For players whose midpoint in their career was in the 1980s and 1990s, the average adjustment is 0.97.

For players whose midpoint in their career was post 2000, the average adjustment is 0.94.




I don't have the runs per wicket averages of any FC match in Australia from the interwar era. Nor do I have team ratings for first-class cricket. However, I think they would probably lose at least 10% of their average. If you score big runs on flat tracks then your average will be adjusted downwards in a big way. That's how the system works.

I base my adjustments on strength of opposition and pitch conditions. On an innings-by-innings basis.

Sorry, I do not understand the last column.

 

[Spark]

Sorry, I do not understand the last column.

adjusted average / actual average

 

[ataraxia]

adjusted average / actual average

Oh percentage that makes sense.