Bairstow vs Buttler

[Jack1]

Better batsman?

 

[The Battlers Prince]

As a batsman I’d rather Bairstow.
As a keeper I’d rather Foakes.
If England bring Buttler down here I’ll be happy.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Don't know. Possibly all time great ODI batsmen but neither would make any decent sides for batting or keeping at test level.

 

[honestbharani]

None of them make very bad errors as keepers. But none of them stand out as test batsmen either. But 2 of them are amazing in LO. I dont envy the difficulty the English selectors have.

If Stokes is fit all the time, I would rather play Foakes as he is the best keeper of the 3 and let the other 2 concentrate on LO cricket. Maybe have one of them as back up in the test tours and even alternate given the bio bubble concerns.

It does look like Buttler is gonna prioritize white ball stuff henceforth, so maybe the decision is already made for them.

 

[lamabear]

Butler for sure could take game away from you quick

 

[Himannv]

Interesting question in limited overs. Maybe Butler in T20s and Bairstow in ODIs.

 

[Nintendo]

Buttler is the better odi bat, other 2 formats are hard to differentiate, though slightly favour bairstow in tests.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Bairstow averages 27.41 as a specialist test bat, but 37.83 when the nominated keeper.

There can't be too many players with such a marked difference with reasonable sample sizes, surely?

Intuitively one would imagine most average more without the mitts.

For comparison Buttler averages 31.65 with the gloves, and 35.68 without, a slight but not negligible difference, which one suspects is the case with most others, the McCullums, Sangakkaras and Walcotts of the world.

Seems as if we've given the wrong keeper the gloves all this time. Although, obviously, other factors (like moving Jonny up the order when he's not keeping) have played into this.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Buttler decided to concentrate on the white ball stuff (good word) years ago. He stopped playing First Class Cricket almost completely and didn't anticipate being a regular in the Test team. If there were half decent other options he wouldn't be playing.

 

[Nintendo]

Buttler decided to concentrate on the white ball stuff (good word) years ago. He stopped playing First Class Cricket almost completely and didn't anticipate being a regular in the Test team. If there were half decent other options he wouldn't be playing.

Foakes spent years on the bench for buttler/Bairstow due to one bad series in the Windies. There was options, the ECB JUST refused to pick them.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Foakes spent years on the bench for buttler/Bairstow due to one bad series in the Windies. There was options, the ECB JUST refused to pick them.

Nope. When Buttler first came back into the Test team he wasn't even keeping wicket.

 

[Nintendo]

Nope. When Buttler first came back into the Test team he wasn't even keeping wicket.

I took your original post to mean that buttler was only brought back TO KEEP/given the gloves at all because of a lack of options, my bad if this wasn't the intention.

 

[Jack1]

Buttler decided to concentrate on the white ball stuff (good word) years ago. He stopped playing First Class Cricket almost completely and didn't anticipate being a regular in the Test team. If there were half decent other options he wouldn't be playing.

More complicated than that that’s for sure. Huge oversimplification.

Bairstow averages 27.41 as a specialist test bat, but 37.83 when the nominated keeper.

There can't be too many players with such a marked difference with reasonable sample sizes, surely?

Intuitively one would imagine most average more without the mitts.

For comparison Buttler averages 31.65 with the gloves, and 35.68 without, a slight but not negligible difference, which one suspects is the case with most others, the McCullums, Sangakkaras and Walcotts of the world.

Seems as if we've given the wrong keeper the gloves all this time. Although, obviously, other factors (like moving Jonny up the order when he's not keeping) have played into this.

The comparison doesn’t work as well as you think, you need to think where they are batting. Well, you did touch on it - but the point is it’s practically the only reason for the contrast.

Neither of them are capable top 5 batsmen in tests. When Bairstow doesn’t keep he almost always bat top 5. So he’s averaging 27.41 as a specialist test bat yes, but he averages 37.18 at 6 and 38.55 at 7 (38.33 at 8).

He averages 28 in the top 5 (52 innings). 37.86 at 6,7 and 8 combined.

Buttler’s batted top 5 in 7 tests (10 inns) and averages 23.3 here. He also averages only 29.7 at 7 and 28.25 at 8 - but 47 at 6 (17 tests / 24 innings -unfortunate for him he’s not been able to bat in his best position more, though sample size isn’t enormous it’s still reasonable and certainly enough to hold weight). Also to consider when comparing batting alone is that Bairstow with the gloves still averages more than Buttler without them.

Buttler’s performance at 6 it would have to be him for me if it’s just one and the keeper bats 6, room for Bairstow as a speciality bat at 7 if you want him. But if the keeper is batting 7 it’s Bairstow by a distance over Buttler! (What I carry on to say suggests Foakes batting at 7 looks a very strong option too, making room for Bairstow as a specialist bat at 6 - or if Buttler plays as a specialist bat at 6 you’ll have to hide him in the field.)

Who gets the gloves when both play - this is complicated by the fact Bairstow can field better. Buttler isn’t test match standard without the gloves in my opinion. Isn’t quick like Bairstow, athletic like Bairstow or a very strong arm like Bairstow. You can also try to put Bairstow in the slips where England don’t have many options. You can’t for Buttler - Buttler for example also dropped a lot of catches in a series without them - I mean a lot - he got the joint record (with Kamran Akmal) in the CricViz database (tests since 2006) for most dropped catches by an individual player in a series since they started recording and it was just a 3 test series (2019 series vs West Indies). That’s not to mention other games. Bairstow isn’t a flawless fielder, no one is. But clearly better than Buttler. The difference between them with the gloves isn’t much, Buttler has been keeping very well lately. Hiding Buttler in the field further complicates it, you’d have to consider the other players (how they can field) and which of the two other keepers to select. We can’t consider Foakes as a specialist bat - I suspect he won’t be a good fielder. We wouldn’t be considering Buttler if it wasn’t for his performance specifically at 6 - something he is highly unlikely to maintain long test considering his overall test stats and fc record (though not impossible) - but the fact he has to be hidden on the field, plus the low sample size (as mentioned), low fc record (as mentioned) and “low” overall test average I think it’s unlikely England would play him without the gloves again (it’s a possibility you could certainly try to justify though, 47 average at 6 is very strong)

Can also consider Foakes since it’s been mentioned, though this was just about their batting. Foakes is a good keeper, but in my opinion overly bigged up as a keeper - but the best of the 3 with the gloves. It should also be noted he has a decent fc batting average compared to Buttler, comfortably better - and noted that all 8 of his tests have been away from home and it’s a small sample size but he’s had to bat out of position at 8 (23.12) more than he’s batted at his strongest 7 (43) and it’s a big performance difference - (Bairstow and Buttler both average more at home like most players, you’d expect the same for Foakes).

There’s a case for all three keepers in tests at different times, the conditions to consider and where they are batting, the balance of the side - if Stokes can bat 5 (giving the potential option of selecting Bairstow as a specialist bat at 6 or 7 plus Buttler at 6 or Foakes at 7), If Stokes is injured then who are the alternatives and so on. But it’s obviously very hard (impossible in my opinion) to justify any of them in the top 5 with or without gloves by what I’ve said.

Think I’ve covered enough, potentially in a roundabout way as I mentioned Foakes but should make sense. This is without even discussing Bairstow vs Buttler in limited overs!

 

[honestbharani]

England should really firm up a test middle order of

Root
Stokes
Keeper
Moeen
Woakes

Maybe this rules out Foakes but that would be such a good balance to have. As you can play 3 more seamers f conditions dictate, or you can still pick your 2 best seamers and your best spinner and still have adequate back up in each discipline with the ball.

 

[Jack1]

Personally I think Bairstow is a better test match bat overall all things considered - I can’t justify arguing otherwise. His fc average is also miles better.

ODI comparison. When I consider that the most important thing for any team is a probably a flier and Bairstow averages 47.91 with 105.01 it’s hard not to vote for him considering the above paragraph. You can take the game away from opposition or dominate the chase from ball 1 - it helps the team and batsmen to come massively. That’s Bairstow’s value. That’s roughly 96-2 off 15.1 overs on average if Bairstow is both openers which is incredible.

By comparison Buttler as an individual gives you 38.72 at 118.66. On average that’s roughly 39 off 33 balls (5.3 overs) - 78-2 off 10.6 overs if there’s two of them.

Hard to compare as they bat different positions/roles and they are both ATG ODI batsmen for their roles. I would be inclined to value Bairstow higher by a whisker even just in ODIs as I value a flier a lot and he’s averaging nearly 50 doing it. Has to be said though, Buttler hasn’t had the chance to do the same role. I have to personally favour one over the other somehow (or I can call it a draw by default considering both ATG in their roles). Buttler is ahead in T20I , but that’s close too.

I think I would probably consider the sample size at 6 in tests not enough help for Buttler compared to his overall test and fc records to sway it to him. Over all 3 formats it’s Bairstow for me.

 

[mr_mister]

England should really firm up a test middle order of

Root
Stokes
Keeper
Moeen
Woakes

Maybe this rules out Foakes but that would be such a good balance to have. As you can play 3 more seamers f conditions dictate, or you can still pick your 2 best seamers and your best spinner and still have adequate back up in each discipline with the ball.

one of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes can be replaced with a specalist bat surely. 7 bowlers is overkill

 

[Jack1]

one of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes can be replaced with a specalist bat surely. 7 bowlers is overkill

Not to say you don’t still want an extra specialist batsman, but it’s 6 bowlers . Are you counting Root as a bowler? If everyone is fit it depends on form and where the game is being played what the balance (and which keeper and where the keeper would bat) I would go for.

 

[mr_mister]

He has Root at 3 and Woakes at 7 right?

So Stokes, Woakes and Moeen + 8-11

 

[Jack1]

He has Root at 3 and Woakes at 7 right?

So Stokes, Woakes and Moeen + 8-11

No. I suspect it has to be Root 4, Stokes 5, Keeper 6, Ali 7 otherwise they are all out of position apart from Woakes (and you lose a specialist batsman!).

 

[mr_mister]

ah, well that makes sense.