ATGs and WWII

[Coronis]

Sid Barnes and Lindsay Hassett both played in the 38 series in England, averaging 37 and 24.87 respectively. Both went on to average 66.53 and 49.55 post war, missing the ages from 23-29 and 26-32. Perhaps Barnes might’ve even had less trouble with the establishment later in his career if not for the war.

An early 40’s Australian XI including Bradman, McCabe, Barnes, Hassett, O’Reilly, Lindwall and Miller sure looks menacing. Might be facing an English XI including Hammond, Hutton, Compton, Edrich, Ames/Evans, Verity and Bedser.

 

[peterhrt]

A few old players who enjoyed high reputations in their own/adopted countries, with restricted or no Test career. Probably less well-known elsewhere. WWII was a factor in some cases.

Figures below show first-class record against English and Australian teams. Opponents also include Commonwealth XIs, which were basically combined English/Australian sides reinforced with the odd high-profile West Indian. Year of first-class debut in brackets.

India

CK Nayudu (1916): 4007 runs, average 31.80. 8 centuries.
Vijay Merchant (1929): 6107 runs, average 58.72. 14 centuries.

Palwankar Baloo (1906). No Tests. 75 wickets @ 20.12
Mahomed Nissar (1929): 207 wickets @ 21.30
Amar Singh (1930): 266 wickets @ 19.84

Lala Amarnath (1930): 4785 runs, average 38.28. 18 centuries / 161 wickets @ 27.47

New Zealand

Stewie Dempster (1921): 8963 runs, average 48.44. 29 centuries.
Martin Donnelly (1937): 8348 runs, average 47.97. 21 centuries.

Arthur Fisher (1891). No Tests. 57 wickets @ 20.57
Jack Cowie (1932): 205 wickets @ 23.40

Roger Blunt (1917): 4644 runs, average 40.38. 7 centuries / 146 wickets @ 31.31

West Indies

George Challenor (1906): 4422 runs, average 36.54. 10 centuries.

Clifford Goodwin (1891), No Tests. 74 wickets @ 12.94
Manny Martindale (1929): 169 wickets @ 25.30

Sydney Smith (1900), No Tests. 7560 runs, average 30.98. 13 centuries / 644 wickets @ 18.76

Ceylon/Sri Lanka

Derrick De Saram (1930), No Tests. 1785 runs, average 37.97. 3 centuries.

Gamini Goonesena (1948), No Tests. 604 wickets @ 23.79

Australia

Frank Tarrant (1899), No Tests. 16582 runs, average 36.20. 31 centuries / 1318 wickets @18.43

USA

Bart King (1893), No Tests. 415 wickets @ 15.65

 

[peterhrt]

Leading batsmen in first-class cricket during WWII. October 1939 to September 1945.

Indian Batsmen (2000 runs)

Merchant 3829 runs, average 141.81. 16 centuries.
Hazare 5286 runs, average 99.73. 19 centuries. See also bowling in next post.
Modi 2097 runs, average 95.31. 9 centuries.
Adhikari 2054 runs, average 52.66. 4 centuries.
Mushtaq Ali 2835 runs, average 50.62. 8 centuries.

Australian Batsmen (1000 runs)

Bradman 1493 runs, average 93.31. 5 centuries.
Badcock 1046 runs, average 69.73. 5 centuries.
Barnes 1580 runs, average 60.76. 8 centuries.
Hassett 1577 runs, average 52.56. 4 centuries.
Bill Brown 1289 runs, average 49.57. 3 centuries.
McCabe 1180 runs, average 49.16. 1 century.
Miller 1163 runs, average 46.52. 4 centuries.
Rex Rogers 1065 runs, average 42.60. 2 centuries.
Pepper 1008 runs, average 32.51. 1 century. See also bowling in next post.

West Indian Batsmen (1000 runs)

John Goddard 1221 runs, average 76.31. 4 centuries.
Worrell 1128 runs, average 66.35. 3 centuries.
Jeffrey Stollmeyer 1181 runs, average 56.23. 3 centuries.

(Gerry Gomez scored 999 runs)

New Zealand Batsmen (1000 runs)

Ian Cromb 1238 runs, average 45.85. 2 centuries. Also took 47 wickets.

(Martin Donnelly scored 856 runs at an average of 95.11 with 4 centuries)

Leading English batsman was Compton with 990 runs, average 90.00, including 5 centuries. All his matches were in India.

 

[peterhrt]

Leading bowlers in first-class cricket during WWII.

Indian Bowlers (100 wickets)

CS Nayudu 226 @ 22.32
Amir Elahi 175 @ 23.14
Sarwate 142 @ 23.50
Hazare 165 @ 23.65. See also batting in previous post.
Banerjee 106 @ 23.74

Australian Bowlers (50 wickets)

O'Reilly 119 @ 13.78
Grimmett 98 @ 23.69
Pepper 84 @ 30.21. See also batting in previous post.
Ward 50 @ 32.58
Ring 52 @ 38.28

All leg-spinners.

New Zealand Bowlers (50 wickets)

Burtt 54 @ 16.27
Pritchard 56 @ 19.80

West Indian Bowlers (50 wickets)

Pierre 58 @ 23.63

Leading South African bowler was Norman Gordon with 44 wickets @ 16.11.

 

[Coronis]

In other words barely anyone played first class cricket except India? Where both batsmen and bowlers have always achieved crazy domestic numbers vs tests

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

The stats of Hazare(All round) ,Merchant and Modi looks like god-like and sort of world beaters.Whereas India would be demolished 5-0 by the Australian’s had the team collided in early 1940s(with no rain interruption).

 

[peterhrt]

In other words barely anyone played first class cricket except India? Where both batsmen and bowlers have always achieved crazy domestic numbers vs tests

Sheffield Shield and Plunket Shield were completed for 1939-40, then suspended. England tour to India was scheduled for the same time and cancelled.

Domestic cricket in India continued much as normal throughout the war. In the West Indies they played friendlies (first-class) when they could.

 

[peterhrt]

The stats of Hazare(All round) ,Merchant and Modi looks like god-like and sort of world beaters.Whereas India would be demolished 5-0 by the Australian’s had the team collided in early 1940s(with no rain interruption).

Merchant and Modi missed the 1947-48 tour to Australia through illness. They had averaged 61 and 86 respectively in the unofficial 3-Test series against the Australian Services team in India in 1945. India won that series 1-0, with Modi scoring 203 in the decisive match and Banerjee and Sarwate each taking eight wickets.

Banerjee, aged 36, was not selected to tour Australia, and opening bat Mushtaq Ali was also unavailable. Fazal Mahmood was due to take the new ball for India but withdrew following confirmation of Partition.

Hazare did well enough, scoring a century in each innings at Adelaide. With both regular openers absent, Mankad went in first and made a couple of hundreds in the Tests, but frequently fell cheaply to Lindwall. He also got through a lot of overs but was less threatening than in England. Overall India's bowling wasn't strong enough to contain the Australians on their own pitches, and too many of the tourists' own key batsmen were missing.

 

[Bolo.]

An ATG anyway, no question.

First-class career average in England (62) is higher than any English batsman, and both his visits were during wet summers. This is a more impressive achievement than many in Test cricket.

Cashed in at the Brabourne regularly and could be slow, especially when chasing records, in contrast to the dashing first outstanding India-based batsman CK Nayudu. Unfortunate to miss the post-war tour to Australia due to illness.

On a green top against the new ball, definitely a better bet than Sehwag.

This does come with a qualification in terms of there being basically no good pace at that time. You can't really hold it against Merchant, but I'm also not sure you can definitely say Sehwag would be worse*


*you kinda can given Sehwag's weakness, but it is conjecture.

 

[fredfertang]

Alec Bedser didn't make his Test debut until he was 28, and what might Ross Gregory have achieved?

 

[peterhrt]

This does come with a qualification in terms of there being basically no good pace at that time. You can't really hold it against Merchant, but I'm also not sure you can definitely say Sehwag would be worse*


*you kinda can given Sehwag's weakness, but it is conjecture.

There were no fast bowlers in England in 1946, it is true, although Merchant did well enough against Keith Miller in India a few months before.

There were a few around during the two series Merchant played against England in the 1930s. He took a hundred off Gover and Allen at Manchester in 1936, and scored 52 and 48 in the next Test against Voce and Allen. Gover in particular was sharp at this time and Voce was always aggressive.

In India a couple of years earlier, England opened up with Nobby Clark and Morris Nichols. Both were quick and hit Indian batsmen on the head, forcing them to retire. Nichols also split Merchant's chin with a short ball in a match outside the Tests. After this Merchant became more watchful and a very sound player of fast bowling.

It is conjecture, but I would rather have Merchant opening the batting on a cloudy morning at Lord's. While Sehwag would no doubt get the vote for a run chase against the clock.

 

[Line and Length]

We are really looking at hypothetical ATGs whereas I was looking at actual ATGs and the affect of WWII.

A player needs to be at least an 'ATVG' at Test level to be considered. Players such as O'Reilly, Cowie and Merchant definitely fit the bill.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

We are really looking at hypothetical ATGs whereas I was looking at actual ATGs and the affect of WWII.

A player needs to be at least an 'ATVG' at Test level to be considered. Players such as O'Reilly, Cowie and Merchant definitely fit the bill.

Tiger was a ATG.Being the best bowler in the world from start to finish is surely an ATG.

Cowie,Merchant might have had a shot.

 

[peterhrt]

We are really looking at hypothetical ATGs whereas I was looking at actual ATGs and the affect of WWII.

A player needs to be at least an 'ATVG' at Test level to be considered. Players such as O'Reilly, Cowie and Merchant definitely fit the bill.

Don Tallon?

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Merchant and Modi missed the 1947-48 tour to Australia through illness. They had averaged 61 and 86 respectively in the unofficial 3-Test series against the Australian Services team in India in 1945. India won that series 1-0, with Modi scoring 203 in the decisive match and Banerjee and Sarwate each taking eight wickets.

Can’t draw any conclusion from that as only Hassett and Miller would be in Australia’s ‘real’ Test team.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Not exactly. He was ruled physically unfit. But when the Victory Tests were played in 1946 (2 all and one draw) he didn't play as only active servicemen were selected. These 'Tests' were ruled 'unofficial' as Bradman didn't play. For that matter, neither were Lindwall and Morris as they were still stationed in the Pacific.

Some of his confreres (notably Flying Officer Keith Miller of the RAAF) were a little unconvinced of the severity of his ailments though, weren't they?

Jack Fingleton (not Bradman's closest buddy, it must be said, but anyway) related a (possibly apocryphal) story that during the 1948 Invincibles test series Bradman had called on the nugget to bowl but, possibly feeling the effects of his long term back problems you alluded to, the great man demurred.

Sir Don said something to the effect of ''I don't know what's up with you chaps, I'm 40 and I can do my full day's work in the field.''

To which Miller replied, " So would I; if I had fibrositis during the war!''

 

[Burgey]

Stan McCabe was just 28 when he played his last test.By then he had played 3 of the greatest innings ever,already.Might have added some more.

I wonder what Australian team would have looked like in 1942 Ashes series.
Australia might have fielded O’Reilly,Lindwall,Miller and maybe Johnston (or McCool) in same team.

A potential 1942 side:

Barnes
Brown
Bradman
McCabe
Hassett
Gregory/Badcock
Miller
Tallon
Lindwall
Johnston
O’Reilly

You wouldn’t bother turning up if you had to play that team. It’s better than the Invincibles.