Andy Flower...considering his future?

[Mark68]

Apparently Mr Flower is set for discussions with Paul Downton soon. I don't think he will be asked to leave the post and he has expressed a desire to continue onto new challenges. And challenges they most certainly are. What do people think? Should he go?

I think he has done a superb job to get England up to No.1 albeit temporarily and can't see why he shouldn't carry on. He wants to beat Duncan Fletcher and win back the little urn as well. He's still a relatively young guy as well.

 

[BoyBrumby]

He remains an impressive man with a proven track record as a coach, but there's no point denying things have gone badly wrong this tour and the buck has to stop somewhere.

The squad was unbalanced, slightly wrong-headed (the three giant seamers in the squad have played precisely one test between them in four) and Trott's departure with what was subsequently reported as a long-standing stress problem does ask the question if he should have ever gone at all.

It's always tempting to compare the vanquished with the victor and Flower is more or less the exact opposite of his Australian counterpart, so a knee-jerk reaction would be to look for an English Boof, if such a person existed.

I don't think he does tho (I can't even think of a semi-serious comparison), Lehmann seems a peculiarly Australian creature (I suspect he's actually rather more considered chap than his "pie and peas" public image, but equally there's no doubt he is more old school than Flower) so the question the ECB (& Flower himself) must ask is if he remains the best man for the job or, if not, who could do a better one?

 

[Tangles]

Was he responsible for the squad though?

 

[Shri]

Don't agree with a few of his policies like asking players to play multiple forms of the game or retire from all forms of the game(KP, for example). England could approach Kirsten I suppose. He was good for India. Not too many good options on the table for England.

 

[benchmark00]

I've heard Micky Arthur is available.

 

[Mark68]

I've heard Micky Arthur is available.

Possibly...have the ECB done their homework on him though?

 

[Cooky Monster]

Apparently Mr Flower is set for discussions with Paul Downton soon. I don't think he will be asked to leave the post and he has expressed a desire to continue onto new challenges. And challenges they most certainly are. What do people think? Should he go?

I think he has done a superb job to get England up to No.1 albeit temporarily and can't see why he shouldn't carry on. He wants to beat Duncan Fletcher and win back the little urn as well. He's still a relatively young guy as well.

Thats one of the most insane things ive ever read, just take a look at this tour from squad selection till now, in sporting terms its been a complete and utter disaster, not one decision has been correct, if he has any dignity he will resign once the tour is over.

 

[Cooky Monster]

Saker can piss off aswell, he seems to be flying under the radar, i mean where are the bowlers after Anderson and Broad? who is there? what has he actually been doing?, our best after those 2 Onions and Finn have been treated abysmally though in different ways, Finn was a top prospect, its shambolic what has happened to him, its absolutely pitiful we have to steal another Irishman to be one of the next in line who isn't good enough anyway.

Seriously they all need to go so England can start with a completely clean slate, the set up we have now is broken beyond repair, its amazing that some people can't see it, if we want those Ashes back in 18 months it needs to be done.

 

[GIMH]

Oh god

 

[Furball]

Make it stop.

 

[Adders]

Yeah look, take a pill CM and go have a lie down son.......howardj posted this in another thread, I suggest you read it and take it on board......

This series to me, at least the mindset of both teams, has shades of the 2009 Sth Africa v Australia series. The Sth Africans just months earlier reached their Summit, namely beating Australia in Australia. By contrast, the Australian team were hyper motivated; having just lost their first series in Australia since 1993. Sth Africa just weren't up for the Title Fight. Winning the Series however did not herald the beginning of a dynasty for Australia or even a revival. For Sth Africa, the Series was a mere hiccup.

England and Australia would do well to not read to much into this Ashes series. Things are not as bad for England as they seem, or as good for Australia as they seem. That said, certain fundamentals have changed for both teams. For Australia, the Lehman factor (the commonsense he brings to the table and the ability to create the right feeling within teams) will endure, while for England the loss of a truly world class spinner and batsman, and the seemingly terminal decline of Prior leave massive holes, both in team dynamics and ability.

I don't have my head in the sand and am not denying for a minute that we don't have some serious issues to address in the aftermath of this series, but cool heads are what's required not going off half ****ed and kneejerk reactions.

 

[Crazy Sam]

I really think there are tours from time to time which get to a point where you hit rock bottom and it is simply impossible to improve until you get away from that environment in a fresh series, preferably at home. While Melbourne was a bad test for England, the rot set in far earlier in the series and is very difficult to turn around under the circumstances. I think it gives Flower an opportunity to regenerate the team ahead of whatever test series is next for them. I haven't paid too much attention to ODI's this year but feel the upcoming series is an opportunity to give a lot of the English test players an extended break.

 

[Jono]

If Cook and Flower aren't working for some reason, then Flower has to go. But we can't say that for sure can we?

Its really hard to tell from our point of view. I mean, all this talk about Flower being too demanding and serious etc. just seems like media **** to say when the team is losing.

Every coach has their used by date, but this team is going to have a **** load new players in the next 12 months. Can't see why Flower wouldn't be a great coach for them.

Its tough though - I've simultaneously argued for Cook and Flower to stay on this forum. And I strongly believe they probably should. But its legitimate to ask then - who the hell is responsible for this mess if you're going to keep them both? Maybe I'd have a different opinion of whether they should still be captain/coach respectively if I was an English supporter. Who knows. I just feel that whilst England have sucked serious balls here, there is going to be a natural turnover of players anyway. May be no need to axe the leaders when its just the end of an era.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Any heat that does get put on Flower is increased by the moves that he's made to slowly move out of the squad, especially the appointment of Giles.

Saker is an interesting one. He's never seen his role as a "technician", more working with the bowlers on plans and how to take wickets from game to game. I hear that Kevin Shine spends time travelling with the English side, who I understand is the Academy pace bowling coach; it would be interesting to see how their roles work together.

 

[Adders]

If it is deemed necessary to cull one of Cook or Flower because the partnership just doesn't work then it has to be Flower that goes........all this talk of taking the captaincy of Cook to me is just crazy, as others have pointed out half the country wanted Clarke gone when the Aussies hit rock bottom in India........who would want rid of him now??

I seems to me that coaches have a shelf life, what can work well for a period doesn't necessarily work well indefinitely....we saw the same thing with Fletcher. The question now with Flower is if he has a B plan, is he adaptable enough to accept the brand of cricket England are currently playing isn't working and open to trying a new approach? If he is I have no objection to him carrying on.

Crazy Sam makes a very good point, England just need to get away from this series and asses what went wrong and work towards fixing it.........both Cook and Flower need to be honest with themselves and work out where each of them has failed.

One thing that is bugging me slightly with Flower right now though is his constant reference to this being Cooks first captaincy loss and only Englands 3rd series loss in 4 1/2 years........that's a bit of a cop out IMO and glosses over some rank performances, you can't hide behind past (moderate) success when you hit a new low like this. I'd prefer to hear him copping this on the chin and talk of moving forward and improving.

 

[Tangles]

England have looked shot since Adelaide. When a team hits rock bottom on an away tour it's hard to turn around on tour but I've been surprised at the lack of fight and the lack of progress. They were ambushed in Brisbane but at times it's looked like that was where the series was lost. That's not good enough in a 5 match series.

 

[Mark68]

Well he has still won 30 Tests while in charge and lost 16. This thrashing alone shouldn't necessarily see the end of him...unless there is someone infinitely better. Is there? And too much emphasis is being placed on the coaches Gooch and Saker who are not out in the middle themselves. The blokes have to perform out in the middle. Flower has to identify some new players, look at their character and potential, select them and stick with them. Build for the next Ashes.

 

[91Jmay]

If Flower goes Gillespie would be high on my list of replacements, done a fine job at Yorkshire.

 

[GIMH]

If Flower goes Gillespie would be high on my list of replacements, done a fine job at Yorkshire.

Would he want the job?

 

[Jarquis]

Don't know about Flower but Gooch is the man that has to go