*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

With all the debate over team selections in the NZ in SA thread I thought a fresh thread solely for the discussion of the Black Caps might be of some use.


The big thing first: team selections. The opening woes and our bowling stocks.

Bowling:

How far away is Mark Gillespie from making some sort of debut? Haven't seen him play but has a pretty good (in "NZ standards") FC record. 148 wickets at 25, and the most wickets in the State Shield this season. Bring him in to replace Martin?

Should Jeetan Patel be our first choice spinner? What about Bruce Martin?

Should Vettori play as the fifth bowling option and the all-rounder given Styris's bad form of late and Oram not looking that flash (IMO) with the ball?

Should we accept Bond breaks down more than he plays and move on?

Batting:

Vincent and Sinclair - one of the big debates. Should they open? Should Sinclair be recalled?

Papps and How - give them a longer run as a combination?

Ryder and Taylor - replace Styris, Astle or Oram? What about Fulton?


Discuss

Players I would like to see in the future....

Mark Gillespie - As said earlier hes gat a much better domestic record than Martin lately.
Graeme Aldridge - Also has shown some bowling talent over the past few seasons
Bruce Martin and Nathan Mcullum - Both have potential and could get places IMO
Ross Taylor - Of course hes going to be in the squad more often after WC probably
Jesse Ryder - Another one that is promising with the bat but would he succeed? Big ?

Thats it really at the moment but a player I would like to see play is Jonathan Trott even though I don't think he'll ever want to play for us or get residency here. I still can't believe they use 7 bowlers ahead of him in county cricket, it's puzzling although his figures were 1-22 off 2 overs in his last spell.

The blackcaps have some potentially good players to fill in spots in the future. Looking forward to the WC and hope to see something special from our players.

How does everyone think our squad would fit in West Indies conditions?

Natman20 said:

Jesse Ryder - Another one that is promising with the bat but would he succeed? Big ?

How does everyone think our squad would fit in West Indies conditions?

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Ryder has a fairly good FC average (45) so he may make the test team before Taylor.



Our pace attack should do well in the WIndies conditions. The question being who will it be?

I would like to see Bond, Mills, Vettori and Oram. But the most likely one is Franklin, Mills, Vettori and Oram and as backup bowlers in our squad I would have Jeetan Patel and Michael Mason (anyone but Martin). The thing about Chris Martin is that he seems to take wickets even though he doesn't look any good at all and most of them are just silly shots from the batsmen. After the world cup how long do you think Bond will play? Hes already 30 and going at his pace I don't think he'll last much longer. I think he could possibly retire after the WC but still play 1st class. If we are really desperate for bowlers then I think the safest options would be to call up players with international experience such as maybe Andre Adams.

I've seen Mark Gillespie bowl and he's pretty damn good
hows his batting
put him in for C.Martin
Vincent over Sinclair
With Styris' form (if you could call it that) is down the poohole so bring in Taylor
As for Bondy- he needs to show that he can stay a hole season without getting an injury that would stop him playing. Then call him up (thoughts??)

Perhaps to ensure Bonds fitness they only play him in crucial matches(finals etc) and in other matches he can spend his time not getting injured. I know its pretty exteme special treatment...maybe he's worth that much to the NZ side?

Sinclair should play, so should Vincent IMO. For Fulton and Marshall. Harsh on Fulton but Vincent rates higher for me and should be a middle order player in the longer form.

http://www.blackcaps.co.nz/display.aspx?pri=36&sec=68&cid=4511&provider=0&tpl=0

'Bracewell praises Franklin'

Well I don't know what to say. Franklin is nothing spectacular with the ball and yet Bracewell is making him out to be some sort of hero. I couldn't care less if he wasn't in the squad and to me its quite worrying to me that Bracewell thinks that he is so good. Hes a fringe player IMO. If Tuffey was fit he would be in my squad straight away instead of Franklin I would also rather pick Kyle Mills.

I thought it would be interesting to make comparisons of:
The difference between us and Australia

1. Australia have always got some great batsman that can back up another batsmans failures.
2. New Zealand has a great tail end. (Australia does at certain times to I guess like 200 from Gillespie)
3. Australia have depth and are taught well from an early age
4. Australia has a few million more people than us
5. Australia have better pitches
6. New Zealand is inconsistent (e.g 590 one week and the just over 100 the next. ok conditions might not suit all the time but still.)
7. Australia are in yellow and green uniforms New Zealand are in black.
8. Australian players earn a lot more than that of a New Zealand player.
9. Australia are better
10. I've had enough because i'm tired but it was interesting for a while

You'd have Mills over Franklin?


I like Franklin. I'd have him as third choice seamer behind Bond and Tuffey (they'd share the new ball...). Franklin is a better test bowler than Mills and Martin, though he's still a poor ODI bowler...

Would like to see Gillespie in the side though.



World Cup squads. Who do you think will make the cut?

You can't take in Oram, Vettori, Franklin and Mills to a Test match and expect to take 20 wickets.

That's true. Oram isn't a frontline bowler and shouldn't be used as such. To me, he's a middle order batsman who bowls a bit (like Astle).
Mills is still finding his feet at test level, I guess. He had a good tour of South Africa with the ball, but his batting is greatly overrated.
Franklin took the most wickets for us.
Vettori was, well, Vettori.

We need to get away from the all-rounder type of attack (Oram, Vettori and Franklin all with test centuries now) and build a proper bowling attack, even if that means sacrificing our long tail (which isn't of much use if you can't take 20 wickets!)

We should probably try and match England's Ashes bowling attack (in terms of role). No doubt 4 out of the 5 English bowlers are better than ours (or 3 out of 5, depending on who you rate).

6. Flintoff - Vettori
8. Giles - Franklin
9. Hoggard - Bond
10. Harmison - Tuffey
11. Jones - Gillespie/Butler (depending)

Alternatively, bat McCullum at 6 and Vettori at seven...

Patel in for Tuffey or Gillespie/Butler on turning wickets...

Too crazy?

Natman20 said:

Franklin is nothing spectacular with the ball and yet Bracewell is making him out to be some sort of hero. I couldn't care less if he wasn't in the squad and to me its quite worrying to me that Bracewell thinks that he is so good. Hes a fringe player IMO. If Tuffey was fit he would be in my squad straight away instead of Franklin I would also rather pick Kyle Mills.

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James Franklin has the best average of our current bowling attack (ignoring Bond), and even in world terms, it's perfectly respectable. He also has a better test strike rate than Richard Hadlee. If Franklin can cut down the number of gimme balls, he'll be a jewel for us for years to come. He can bat a bit too.

Natman20 said:

Australia have better pitches

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That's an entirely subjective point to make. Who says that pace and bounce is the holy grail of pitch conditions? It's good that conditions are variable worldwide. If they were all the same it would be boring. Anyway, Aussie pitches aren't the same as they used to be - Perth is no longer a fast bowler's paradise. One only had to see the Aus v SA test there last season to see that.

It's also not much of an observation to note that Australia are better than NZ. They enjoy a larger player base, better conditions at the grassroots level, greater resources and a higher public profile. NZ will never be as good as Australia for any significant length of time.

I meant better batting pitches. I mean you don't really see people get over 400 on a NZ pitch that often. You will probably prove me wrong somehow I guess its allright not to judge a pitch on its batting merits but also on its bowling merits too. But for me I would rather see score of over 400 than 280 or something like that.

Franklins statistics are useless to me. I think hes crud and is lucky to take most of his wickets. His only good period of bowling is when he first starts his spell and the ball is swinging. If the ball wasn't swinging he'd be practically a bit like Martin. I still like the look of Kyle Mills. I wouldn't have rated Mills a couple years ago but I think he has really improved and has a role to play in the ODIs and I think he could become more effective in Tests.

What about the development sides playing in Australia? The squads are:

Team One: Peter Fulton (Captain), James Marshall (vice-captain), Graham Aldridge, Brendan Diamanti, Mark Gillespie, Jamie How, Michael Mason, Nathan McCullum, Peter McGlashan, Warren McSkimming, Jesse Ryder, Ross Taylor, Lou Vincent

Team Two: Craig McMillan (captain), Matthew Bell (vice-captain), Hamish Bennett, Gareth Hopkins, Bruce Martin, Chris Martin, Rob Nicol, Mark Orchard, Michael Papps, Jeetan Patel, Mathew Sinclair, Richard Sherlock, Joseph Yovich

Both teams look quite strong. I think it was a good decision to have two teams as we get to see all of the most promising players play. I am looking forward to seeing how they go over there.

I think Hamish Marshall should be in that squad for Lou Vincent, who should be in the test team. RAAAGEEE!!!

Well we arn't playing any games until september so he needs practise and for the millionth time Lou Vincent would have been selected if it was not for the birth of his child as would have Sinclair if it wasn't for his wedding IMO. This should be a good show at how well these players can match up against other countries a teams. Does anyone have the schedule I can't find it anywhere and I don't have any idea of when that series is

John Bracewell is the type of guy who will defend on Sunday what he did on Friday despite what happened on Saturday...

Natman20 said:

Well we arn't playing any games until september so he needs practise and for the millionth time Lou Vincent would have been selected if it was not for the birth of his child as would have Sinclair if it wasn't for his wedding IMO. This should be a good show at how well these players can match up against other countries a teams. Does anyone have the schedule I can't find it anywhere and I don't have any idea of when that series is

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Fair enough - but no Kyle Mills? I don't think he's playing in England, is he?

Natman20 said:

Franklins statistics are useless to me. I think hes crud and is lucky to take most of his wickets. His only good period of bowling is when he first starts his spell and the ball is swinging. If the ball wasn't swinging he'd be practically a bit like Martin. I still like the look of Kyle Mills. I wouldn't have rated Mills a couple years ago but I think he has really improved and has a role to play in the ODIs and I think he could become more effective in Tests.
.

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Hmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Franklin, IMO, is quite clearly our second-best pace bowler behind Bond. Martin needs a squillion different variables to be in his favour to be effective (i.e. pitch conditions, overhead conditions, good rhythm etc); Oram's only a stock bowler who will never take many wickets and Mills a) hasn't played enough tests for us to rate him and b) doesn't have the ability to bowl wicket taking balls like Franklin does. Mills has turned into a useful ODI bowler, but he's never going to run through a team like Bond or even Franklin and Martin can. He doesn't swing it as much and is a bit slower than the other two which reduces his chances of taking wickets.

Also, Franklin most certainly does not take his wickets through luck. If you look at the way he gets batsmen out, most of them come from good-length outswingers/inswingers that get the batsman caught behind/lbw. He genuinely gets batsman out through good bowling rather than waiting for a mistake.

Finally, I disagree that his bowling is only good when the ball is new. Many of Franklin's best spells in recent times have come when he's been pasted in his opening spell and then come back when the ball is a bit older. Look at some of the most recent tests versus Australia and also South Africa and you'd see that this was often the case.

Sir Redman said:

Hmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Franklin, IMO, is quite clearly our second-best pace bowler behind Bond. Martin needs a squillion different variables to be in his favour to be effective (i.e. pitch conditions, overhead conditions, good rhythm etc); Oram's only a stock bowler who will never take many wickets and Mills a) hasn't played enough tests for us to rate him and b) doesn't have the ability to bowl wicket taking balls like Franklin does. Mills has turned into a useful ODI bowler, but he's never going to run through a team like Bond or even Franklin and Martin can. He doesn't swing it as much and is a bit slower than the other two which reduces his chances of taking wickets.

Also, Franklin most certainly does not take his wickets through luck. If you look at the way he gets batsmen out, most of them come from good-length outswingers/inswingers that get the batsman caught behind/lbw. He genuinely gets batsman out through good bowling rather than waiting for a mistake.

Finally, I disagree that his bowling is only good when the ball is new. Many of Franklin's best spells in recent times have come when he's been pasted in his opening spell and then come back when the ball is a bit older. Look at some of the most recent tests versus Australia and also South Africa and you'd see that this was often the case.

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Seconded. Natman's comments sound like irrational bias and shouldn't really be taken seriously.

I just don't like James Franklin! I havn't seen any of the games he played in South Africa and heard he bowled a few good deliveries to get wickets and maybe he could develop into a good bowler but only tests. Please don't have him back in the ODI team he just gets hit for four so often with about 1 off delivery in every over from what i've seen. If Daryl Tuffey was fit I would play him instead. My comments about Mills were probably a bit dumb but hes a good ODI bowler I think and hasn't really been given much opportunity in tests. -- Nobody listen to me i'm irrational --