Kapil Dev vs Courtney Walsh

[peterhrt]

That is a list of numbers that I'm pretty sure everyone will manage to interpret in a way that confirms their existing position.

One interpretation is that there was enough help in Indian pitches for the better pace bowlers. Not long before Kapil's debut England's fast bowlers took 56 wickets between them @ 17 during a five-Test series in India.

 

[kyear2]

Walsh

I will have understand how someone can judge or even advocate selecting a fast bowler based on their batting and place them above someone who is clearly and distinctly better.

You get a few extra runs, but you lower your chance of taking wickets and actually, you know, winning.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Who said they weren't flat for pacers.

But as usual you deliberately miss the point.

It isn't his record in India that pulls him down.

If he averaged 21 everywhere else, he would still be seen as an ATG.

Yeah exactly. No one has said he is an ATG bowler LoL

 

[akilana]

Not really. He will reinvent this argument in a Gavaskar thread by suggesting Gavaskar only scored on the flatter Indian pitches.

the irony..

 

[BazBall21]

Kapil averaged 26 and 33 with bat and ball respectively away from home. These numbers weren't better at any stage of his career. On eye test, limitations in both disciplines are very clear to see.

Gun player and had a very good career, but he gets a bit overrated and some of the excuses&cherry-picking analysis he receives on here verges on laughable.

 

[akilana]

Agreed, Marshall just wasn’t him.

Neither was McGrath. Hadlee is him

 

[Johan]

Kapil averaged 26 and 33 with bat and ball respectively away from home. These numbers weren't better at any stage of his career. On eye test, limitations in both disciplines are very clear to see.

Gun player and had a very good career, but he gets a bit overrated and some of the excuses&cherry-picking analysis he receives on here verges on laughable.

his strongest suit is certainly his performance against strong opposition

 

[Coronis]

Kapil averaged 26 and 33 with bat and ball respectively away from home. These numbers weren't better at any stage of his career. On eye test, limitations in both disciplines are very clear to see.

Gun player and had a very good career, but he gets a bit overrated and some of the excuses&cherry-picking analysis he receives on here verges on laughable.

Looking at his cumulative averages at least, he was pretty consistent over his career. For the vast majority of his career he was within 1 run of both his final batting and bowling averages.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah exactly. No one has said he is an ATG bowler LoL

He's not great either, nor really good.

So I'm genuinely and honestly struggling to see the argument over Walsh and for calling him an ATG.

I saw, well heard, all of Courtney's career, he was critically important to WI cricket team. I don't for a second argue for him being an ATG.

I think Weekes here is a bit underrated and the context for his away struggles is way more pertinent than the ones presented for Kapil, I wouldn't argue for him to be seen as an ATG.

Greenidge matches Sunny in the 80's and was my childhood hero and an acquaintance, a critical member of the WI cricket team, the greatest of all time at that point, and was seen as the better half of one of the greatest opening partnerships ever. Don't make the argument for him to be an ATG.

So yes, I struggle with these arguments.

 

[Johan]

his strongest suit is certainly his performance against strong opposition

Kapil vs Australia and West Indies

45 matches, 1,766 runs @ 29 with 4 tons and 168 @ 25.1 with 11 5fers and 1 10fer.

stellar record against the top two, he really underachieved vs England (with the ball) and New Zealand

 

[BazBall21]

Looking at his cumulative averages at least, he was pretty consistent over his career. For the vast majority of his career he was within 1 run of both his final batting and bowling averages.

Yeah he was very consistently at a certain level.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He's not great either, nor really good.

So I'm genuinely and honestly struggling to see the argument over Walsh and for calling him an ATG.

I saw,.well heard, all of Courtney's career, he was critically important to WI cricket team. I don't for a second argue for him being an ATG.

I think Weekes here is a bit underrated and the context for his away struggles is way more pertinent than the ones presented for Kapil, I DK r argue for him to be seen as an ATG.

Greenidge matches Sunny in the 80's and was my childhood hero and an acquaintance, a critical member of the WI cricket team, the greatest of all time at that point, and was seen as the better half of one of the greatest opening partnerships ever. Don't make the argument for him to be an ATG.

So yes, I struggle with these arguments.

Well, I think I have said plenty much everything I have said, if you disagree fair. But well, the poll results do works in his favour all I can say, massively so.

 

[kyear2]

Kapil averaged 26 and 33 with bat and ball respectively away from home. These numbers weren't better at any stage of his career. On eye test, limitations in both disciplines are very clear to see.

Gun player and had a very good career, but he gets a bit overrated and some of the excuses&cherry-picking analysis he receives on here verges on laughable.

And @capt_Luffy is better than that.

He averaged away from home 33 and 26, in no world are those ATG numbers.

In any context.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Your bias is just out for all to see.

No one's taking away credit for his home performances you jackass.

You actually have. Otherwise what was the point of trying to say if his home conditions were actually flat he should've done better overseas ?

I haven't even argued his overseas record is particularly great tbh. Getting a concession from you that Indian pitches were actually flat is good enough. He did pretty darn well on flat decks (which you agree with) and was relatively disappointing on theoretically pace friendly pitches abroad.

I just think he deserves a lot more credit for the former than you give him. We give players credit all the time for succeeding in conditions that are difficult (be it for batsmen or bowlers), should be the same here.

 

[Johan]

at home

vs Australia: 28 @ 26.75
vs England: 42 @ 35.45
vs New Zealand: 10 @ 23.20
vs Pakistan: 55 @ 22.20
vs Sri Lanka: 29 @ 22.89
vs West Indies: 54 @ 26.05

what's with him and England?

 

[capt_Luffy]

And @capt_Luffy is better than that.

He averaged away from home 33 and 26, in no world are those ATG numbers.

In any context.

As I said, I have said everything I had to. Kapil is legit ATG in WI and Australia, good in Pakistan with the ball and did very well in England and SA with the bat. The only place he really struggled with both is NZ. If you don't think he's an ATG, fair enough. I will say the poll is pretty clear on it though.

 

[BazBall21]

As I said, I have said everything I had to. Kapil is legit ATG in WI and Australia, good in Pakistan with the ball and did very well in England and SA with the bat. The only place he really struggled with both is NZ. If you don't think he's an ATG, fair enough. I will say the poll is pretty clear on it though.

Kyear isn't necessarily wrong. If a political party win an election, that doesn't mean people who voted for the nearest losers are automatically incorrect.

 

[capt_Luffy]

at home

vs Australia: 28 @ 26.75
vs England: 42 @ 35.45
vs New Zealand: 10 @ 23.20
vs Pakistan: 55 @ 22.20
vs Sri Lanka: 29 @ 22.89
vs West Indies: 54 @ 26.05

what's with him and England?

England is single handedly bringing down his total average like a good 3 points lol. But strangely enough, both home and away (excluding SA), he did his best with the bat against them. Legit averages more than Gavaskar vs England.

 

[Bolo.]

Kapil vs Australia and West Indies

45 matches, 1,766 runs @ 29 with 4 tons and 168 @ 25.1 with 11 5fers and 1 10fer.

stellar record against the top two, he really underachieved vs England (with the ball) and New Zealand

Top 2 in his era were WI and Pak.

 

[Coronis]

Kyear isn't necessarily wrong. If a political party win an election, that doesn't mean people who voted for the nearest losers are automatically incorrect.

People were incorrect to vote democrat clearly.