South Africa team selection

[Bahseph]

We are a conservative nation in many ways and it bleeds into our thinking across all aspects. I find it interesting that our Rugby team gets a lot of flak about our Bomb squad but it’s essentially using your resources and thinking out the box.

Yesterday was the most expensive that Kesh has been in an ODI. He has been exceptional for us as a LO spinner but we still use him as a defensive bowler. We like to reward players with leeway. Rassie has been great for us in 50 over tournaments but we nearly went into this tournament with de Zorzi , Rassie and Bavuma as a top 3. So were we never trying to chase over 300? Stubbs has shown that he can score Test Tons but he can also get you 80 off 30.

To me Linde is still the best LO all rounder we have. So what if he bowls the same style as Kesh? Hasn’t stopped India has it? Just the thinking that gets me. We make these rules for ourselves.

 

[StephenZA]

I think if we honest this was not an unexpected performance or even surprising. The losses before hand and the current state of the team has pretty much been the same for the last three to 4 years. Getting to the finals of the last T20 was papering over cracks again that nobody is bothering to resolve that is a fundamental issue in SA cricket.

I know its been great that we have gotten to the Tests finals later in the year, and I think that the Test team looks much more promising, but ultimately I think we are going to get trounced by the Aussies. I truly hope I`m wrong.

We are still hanging on to too many players for to long, even if they are performing in the moment at some stages, ultimately we are never building real long term depth, particularly in the batting. Ask any business no matter how good your current management team is if you are not grooming the next generation now it means nothing for the long term survival of the business. Succession is key. Secondly, as always, SA like it has done since day one plays conservative cricket but more that decision get made before hand, off field on tactics and ideas, but with no flexibility creativity. Its the sort of things that gets you to lots of semis, and gives you a better win/loss ratio, but ultimately never allows for real flair in difficult scenarios that wins you crunch games.

I think the team continues to be to old, I think we continue to hang on to players that need to be dropped. And when we eventually do pick some new players many times they are at a point in their careers where they must perform immediately because of their age because you can't afford to give them 3 years to play the few games that SA plays and then see them retire 2/3 years later. Obviously this needs to be balanced against many factors. The problem here is that this is not a new issue its a continuing issue that has been discussed on here so many times that its almost pointless.

 

[Bahseph]

Great point @StephenZA. We do have a much older ODI team with Klaasen, Rassie , Shamsi and Miller being around. Compared with the Test team where Temba and Markram are the only members of the top 7 over 30. We have seen the benefit of Conrad backing players he thinks are the future. We need that sort of thinking now.

 

[Bahseph]

I made a comment on the match thread but we have just moved to this team make up with Mulder at 7. I’ve watched Mulder very closely in LO games since he plays for DSG and even I know he could potentially leak in a LO game. How did we not see that happening?

 

[Bahseph]

Ngidi was our best seamer yesterday but IMHO he shouldn’t have been on the plane. He has looked to be at 60% for so long. Shamsi as well.

 

[Dendarii]

Need to start planning more ODI cricket, even if it means playing Namibia and Zimbabwe to get more games under the belts of younger players ..

Absolutely. You want to take an experienced team to a tournament, but if we don't play enough ODIs then the young players aren't going to get enough experience and we end up going with older players but then facing a rebuilding problem when they retire en masse (as often happens after a major tournament).

 

[StephenZA]

So on to specific players, unfortunately I think Miller needs to retire, not because he has done anything wrong, but because we have young talented players that need the experience. Klaasen's I think we can hold onto and he can also do Millers role. I was not always convinced of having both Klaasens and Miller at 5/6 and Mulder at 7. Doesn't work. I think Mulder has shown that he needs to bat 5/6 at lowest, if we play him in the LO team, sure he has shown some good cameos but is that what we should be doing with him? Linde at 7 makes more sense, but again as good as he is are we just asking someone to perform in a one off fashion for one tournament or are we actually trying to build a team for long term effect?

I think that Markram needs to be removed across both Test and ODI format. Immensely talented and I`ve been advocating for him for a long time, but he has been given plenty of opportunity up the order and in the middle order. He is only 30, but at this stage his lack of consistent performance is just hurting. Duminy 2.0. Cut the loss and move on. Bavuma is a problem, but I have really liked his performance at test level recently. I would probably keep him in the Test team but drop him in the LO teams.

We should be finding consistent spots for De Zorzi, I like his mentality more than anything, obvious some technical deficiencies but the fact he keeps going big tells me he is obviously mentally there, if he keeps improving that is only a boon for SA. And most definitely be playing Breetzke and Stubbs. And looking to find places for Hermann, Brevis and probably Lhuan-dre.

 

[Dendarii]

Ngidi was our best seamer yesterday but IMHO he shouldn’t have been on the plane. He has looked to be at 60% for so long. Shamsi as well.

Would he have played if Nortje or Coetzee were fit? I agree that he probably shouldn't have been in the initial, but the number of bowlers we have out injured (which is a concern in itself) didn't leave us with a huge number of options. An in-form Ngidi deserves to be in the team, and they may have been hoping he could play himself back into form, but it didn't really work.

 

[Bahseph]

I think this tournament is a natural end for some of the guys in the team. We are really setting ourselves up for failure if we take this core to the 2027 WC. I don’t think Bavuma is going anywhere until he calls it a day. I hope he sticks around in the Test Team but I don’t think we are losing much if we replace him with de Zorzi in the ODI team. I don’t know if Rassie hangs about until then as well. Miller and Klaasen? I think one of them hangs about but not both.

 

[Bahseph]

Would he have played if Nortje or Coetzee were fit? I agree that he probably shouldn't have been in the initial, but the number of bowlers we have out injured (which is a concern in itself) didn't leave us with a huge number of options. An in-form Ngidi deserves to be in the team, and they may have been hoping he could play himself back into form, but it didn't really work.

Agreed. I want Ngidi back at full tilt. It would be great for us as a country because I rate his subtle skills. I just don’t think we will ever see that guy again. I understand he was the third choice for that third seamer role.

 

[StephenZA]

I still have my doubts around Jansen, I never thought he would do as well as he has, but these consistently inconsistent performances are not good. I truly hope he sorts that out. I think we need to give up on Nortje, even if he comes back the reality is how much more do we get from him and will he even be able to get to the performances that he was giving. Coetzee is a concern because of his consistent injury issues. I love him but there needs to be an honest about his ability to stay fit. Burger has shown similar issues. If we can have Coetzee, Burger and Maphaka stay fit we will be good on the fast bowling front I think. But it is seldom that we have problems there.

My question right now is who replaces Maharaj in the Test team? I know Gideon Peters was shown as promising but is he good enough? Who else is there, and unfortunately I don't count Linde as a future solution.

 

[SeamUp]

I still have my doubts around Jansen, I never thought he would do as well as he has, but these consistently inconsistent performances are not good. I truly hope he sorts that out. I think we need to give up on Nortje, even if he comes back the reality is how much more do we get from him and will he even be able to get to the performances that he was giving. Coetzee is a concern because of his consistent injury issues. I love him but there needs to be an honest about his ability to stay fit. Burger has shown similar issues. If we can have Coetzee, Burger and Maphaka stay fit we will be good on the fast bowling front I think. But it is seldom that we have problems there.

My question right now is who replaces Maharaj in the Test team? I know Gideon Peters was shown as promising but is he good enough? Who else is there, and unfortunately I don't count Linde as a future solution.

The thing is, isn't Jansen learning on the job and shown well above normal attributes in performance and potential? He is a player we have to back but this could eat at him now going forward. We need to make sure it doesn't.

Kesh can carry on playing till 40 in the test team for me

 

[SeamUp]

Need to start planning more ODI cricket, even if it means playing Namibia and Zimbabwe to get more games under the belts of younger players ..

Brevis , Lhu-Handre Pretorius, Maphaka need to be ready by WC 27

Think we have Zim coming up but only a test and T20s.

Like for like right now?

1. Bavuma / de Zorzi / J Hermann
2. Rickelton / Pretorius
3. vd Dussen / Breetzke
4. Markram / Stubbs
5. Klaasen / Verreynne
6. Miller / Brevis
7. Mulder / Forrester
8. Linde / Ferreira / D Potgieter (x-factor floater role?)
9. Maharaj / Muthusamy / Fortuin / Simmonds
10. Jansen / E Bosch / Swanepoel / Galiem (open the bowling & bring batting more steady types )
11. Coetzee / C Bosch (bring dynamism with ball and batting)
12. Nortje / Burger / Peters (speed kills)
13. Rabada / Maphaka (Class)
14. Ngidi / Williams / Baartman / Sipamla (first change type who like tired/slower wickets or need the wicket to offer something )
15. Shamsi / Peter (but unless you are superb, are wrist-spinners successful in SA?)

So it's about weighing up the pros and cons of each option and combination and finding the best solutions to utilise what we have got.


These guys have a lot to do to make 2027 but have potential down the line.
1. Daniel Smith
2. Meeka-eel Prince
3. Bryce Parsons
4. Richard Seletswane
5. Romashan Pillay
6. Connor Esterhuizen
7. Oliver Whitehead
8. Keagan Lion-Cachet
9. Dewan Marais
10. Andile Simelane
11. Matthew Boast
12. CJ King
13. Tristan Luus
14. Jason Raubenheimer
15. Schalk Engelbrecht
16. Caleb Seleka

 

[SeamUp]

Mulder has signed for SRH in the IPL.

 

[StephenZA]

Think we have Zim coming up but only a test and T20s.

Like for like right now?

1. Bavuma / de Zorzi / J Hermann
2. Rickelton / Pretorius
3. vd Dussen / Breetzke
4. Markram / Stubbs
5. Klaasen / Verreynne
6. Miller / Brevis
7. Mulder / Forrester
8. Linde / Ferreira / D Potgieter (x-factor floater role?)
9. Maharaj / Muthusamy / Fortuin / Simmonds
10. Jansen / E Bosch / Swanepoel / Galiem (open the bowling & bring batting more steady types )
11. Coetzee / C Bosch (bring dynamism with ball and batting)
12. Nortje / Burger / Peters (speed kills)
13. Rabada / Maphaka (Class)
14. Ngidi / Williams / Baartman / Sipamla (first change type who like tired/slower wickets or need the wicket to offer something )
15. Shamsi / Peter (but unless you are superb, are wrist-spinners successful in SA?)

So it's about weighing up the pros and cons of each option and combination and finding the best solutions to utilise what we have got.


These guys have a lot to do to make 2027 but have potential down the line.
1. Daniel Smith
2. Meeka-eel Prince
3. Bryce Parsons
4. Richard Seletswane
5. Romashan Pillay
6. Connor Esterhuizen
7. Oliver Whitehead
8. Keagan Lion-Cachet
9. Dewan Marais
10. Andile Simelane
11. Matthew Boast
12. CJ King
13. Tristan Luus
14. Jason Raubenheimer
15. Schalk Engelbrecht
16. Caleb Seleka

Mulder needs to play at 5/6. I think he is out of position at 7. Or at least give flexibility to the line-up to send the right batsmen out at the right time.

 

[StephenZA]

The thing is, isn't Jansen learning on the job and shown well above normal attributes in performance and potential? He is a player we have to back but this could eat at him now going forward. We need to make sure it doesn't.

Kesh can carry on playing till 40 in the test team for me

I think Jansen needs to be backed. I'm not wanting to drop him in any way... But needs to be handled correctly.

Keep with Maharaj for as long as we can... But it's worrying that he is the age he is and has little competition from younger players.

 

[SeamUp]

Mulder needs to play at 5/6. I think he is out of position at 7. Or at least give flexibility to the line-up to send the right batsmen out at the right time.

I used to think that with Mulder but he seems to bat better with less expectation to bat big. The cameos in the SA 20 and runs at 8 in the test team.

It's the same with Miller. We always said he would be better coming in at 4 but did we ever stick with it or give him a run at it because we didn't really have 5/6s

 

[Stefan9]

I used to think that with Mulder but he seems to bat better with less expectation to bat big. The cameos in the SA 20 and runs at 8 in the test team.

It's the same with Miller. We always said he would be better coming in at 4 but did we ever stick with it or give him a run at it because we didn't really have 5/6s

Miller has only ever gotten the chance at 4 5 times. One fifty , 2 not outs, average of 41 and strike rate of 108.

His best position stats wise is NR.5 were he averages 50 in 47 innings. His current position is his worse were he averages 40.

 

[SeamUp]

Oops wrong thread but so be it

First season of franchise cricket in 2004/05. Quality senior players with the best young players playing with and learning from them. No chance of a talent gap and players developed quicker.

Just look at WP-Bol and Titans
Bold were internationals or to become. Grey, played for SA A only.




Retirements of international players, SA A, SA Rebel & some select players from 80s to before franchise system.
Dewald Pretorius 2004
Gary Kirsten 2004
Henry Williams 2004
Herman Bakkes 2004 SA A
Clive Eksteen 2004
James Bryant 2004 SA A
Sven Koenig 2004 SA A
Jonty Rhodes 2003
Errol Stewart 2003
Steve Elworthy 2003
Louis Wilkinson 2003 SA A
Steve Palframan 2003
Dave Callaghan 2003
Louis Koen 2002
Nic Pothas 2002
Rudi Steyn 2002
Mike Rindel 2002
Rudi Bryson 2002
Gary Gilder 2002 SA A
Piet Botha 2002 SA A
Greg Smith 2002 SA A
Andrew Hudson 2001
Meyrick Pringle 2001
Mickey Arthur 2001 SA A
Hansie Cronje 2000
Brian McMillan 2000
Craig Matthews 2000
Kepler Wessels 2000
John Commins 2000
Pat Symcox 2000
Mark Rushmere 2000
Roy Pienaar 2000 SA Rebel
Eric Simons 1999
Fanie de Villiers 1998
Phil Amm 1998
Dave Rundle 1998
Brett Schultz 1998
Adrian Kuiper 1998
Richard Snell 1998
Tertius Bosch 1998
Dave Richardson 1998
Kevin Curran 1998
Peter Kirsten 1997
Tim Shaw 1997
Aubrey Martyn 1997 SA A
Terence Lazard 1996
Hugh Page 1996 SA Rebel
Steven Jack 1996
Jimmy Cook 1995
Corrie van Zyl 1995
Peter Rawson 1995
Mandy Yachad 1994
Omar Henry 1994
Clive Rice 1994
Mark Logan 1994
Stephen Jefferies 1994 SA Rebel
Allan Lamb 1993
Lawrence Seeff 1993 SA Rebel
Ray Jennings 1993 SA Rebel
Ken McEwan 1992 SA Rebel
Kenny Watson 1992 SA Rebel
Robert Bentley 1992 SA Rebel
Lee Barnard 1992 SA Rebel
Trevor Madsen 1992 SA Rebel
Anton Ferreira 1992 SA Rebel
Henry Fotheringham 1990 SA Rebel
Brian Whitfield 1990 SA Rebel
Neal Radford 1989
Garth Le Roux 1989 SA Rebel
Lorrie Wilmot 1989
Kevin McKenzie 1988 SA Rebel
Robert Armitage 1988 SA Rebel
Paddy Clift 1988
Graeme Pollock 1987
Rupert Hanley 1987 SA Rebel
Alan Kourie 1987 SA Rebel
Denys Hobson 1985 SA Rebel
Tich Smith 1984
Mike Procter 1984
Vince van Der Bijl 1983 SA Rebel
Barry Richards 1983
Eddie Barlow 1983
Hylton Ackerman 1980

 

[SeamUp]

A little Jonty Rhodes soother.

https://x.com/Houseof_Cricket/status/1897716390930305082?t=YjZwhhXFEnD4hUO0xh16CA&s=19