Johan
International Captain
Alright then, if we're ignoring context...
8,540 @ 50.24
11,867 @ 51.37
both are batters, who is better?
we're unironically giving wrecking up West Indies as much as credit as a pacer averaging 24.8 in Asia.
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Jimmy Anderson vs Ashwin
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
8,540 @ 50.24
11,867 @ 51.37
both are batters, who is better?
we're unironically giving wrecking up West Indies as much as credit as a pacer averaging 24.8 in Asia.
Johan
International Captain
The discussion is who is better away from home
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Ashwin wasn't even routinely selected away because the team doesn't have faith in his bowling.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Yeah and Jimmy sucked in the most important place to tour and in friendly SA pitches and has a really low WPM.
Johan
International Captain
Ashwin sucks just about every place relevant to tour so Anderson being positively medicore in Australia and South Africa wouldn't have much impact.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
His Australia and English record are fine in context. Great in SL against a top tier unit. But yeah, Jimmy is better away. But not levels, as then I would argue Ashwin is so at home
Warne averaged 42 in Ind/WI
Murali averaged 52 in Ind/Aus
Not to say that Ashwin is in same league as those two. Point is it's easier for great spinners to be taken to cleanners in some venues, but it's much harder for great pacers to taken for cleanners in many venues. So saying that , a spinner went for runs in 2 venues and pacers went for less runs in those 2 venues hardly means anything. All those venues are included in away record for both.
So yes, Ashwin averaged 45 in those venues. That's correct and goes negative for him, but it also correct that his away record despite averaging 45 in those venues is same as Anderson's away record. Anderson had lots of oppurtunity to play all teams including SL/WI. I won't call it leagues ahead because for pacers avg 30 and SR in mid 60s with so few 5-fers in 80-90 away tests can't make them leagues ahead. That's just torturing reality. You can certainly make a case for Anderson being better.
I certainly don't think that Ashwin is far head or anything like that, but as a quality of bowler goes over their entire career in all venues goes, I will lean towards Ashwin over Anderson. I shared data but my leaning is mainly based on having watched entire career of both. I don't think it's a wide gap so if anyone thinks Anderson is ahead then that's fine too.
Johan
International Captain
if you wanna discuss context, Anderson bowled with broken ribs in 2014 in Australia, did well in 2010 and 2017 where the pitches were absolute roads and did well in 2021 too, his SA record is also ****ed up by games before he fixed his action in about 2010. Anderson averaged 24.8 in Asia to Ashwin's 39.5 in SENA aka both unfavourable conditions to the bowlers, Anderson averages 24.3 (23.7 without injury series) in SENA to Ashwin's 21.7, Ashwin better in his favoured conditions, Anderson in his unfavourable ones, that's objective.
Johan
International Captain
Warne and Murali were monsters in NZ/ENG/UAE etc, Ashwin wasn't.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Yeah, but I also think Anderson has been quite bad in a few of his favourable conditions as well.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Ash is better.
Johan
International Captain
won't really call Australia favourable for Anderson
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Calling it unfavorable is also a stretch personally
Johan
International Captain
2010-18 one were definitely unfavourable
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Eh. He has a couple of fine tours but I think team will expect more from their no 1 pacer in Australia, much more.
Johan
International Captain
2010 onward he averages 30 in Australia, given the lack of support and one full series of injury, and flat decks in two of those series, that's pretty good, his home record against Australia is a bigger problem.
Andeson's away average in SENA itself is 32-33 with SR 66. That's poor for a pacer and shouldn't be neglected because this is pacer friendly conditions. This is a huge negative against Anderson. Anderson is not able to bowl well in pacer friendly conditions away from home, that's not the case for Ashwin. Ashwin will run circle arond if he gets spin friendly conditions.Anderson was better in tough away conditions for pacers aka Asia than any pacer in the last 10-15 years.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
stats.espncricinfo.com
Ashwin averages 40 in SENA which is the Asia equivalent for spinners, there's no shame in conceding Anderson was a league ahead in conditions tough for his bowling
Anderson away in SENA ( pacer friendly conditions ):
Worst SR and worst AVG among all these bowlers( all are pacers) and pacers friendly conditions. Can you imagine the reverse for Ashwin in spin friendly conditions? I can't. Ahswin has enough quality/skills to make use of all spin friendly conditions unlike Anderson.
Over all., there are some things going for Anderson and some things going for Ashwin. It's perfectly fine to say that Anderson is ahead away, but leagues ahead has no basis when he is so poor away from home even in pacer's friendly conditions in SENA. Away does not mean only taking SENA for Ashwin and taking Asia for Anderson. It also include what both are capable to do away when conditions help them.
Against top teams( home + away ), Ashwin also blows Anderson away. That's why I feel that overall Ashwin has an edge over Anderson. I don't think gap is a big one though. Anderson was fantastic at home and he did improve by adding reverse in later part of his career when playing away.
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Johan
International Captain
did you watch Cricket in the 2010s?
Why are you pretending Australia is bowler friendly in the 2010s until like COVID?
Pacers are expected to do well in pacer's friendly conditions. Context should including what a pacer did in pacer friendly conditions.
Johan
International Captain
Ok
but Australia of 2010s was not pacer friendly, Dale Steyn is one of the greatest bowlers to ever walk planet Earth and even he averages 29 on these Australian pitches