Peak Bumrah vs Peak Imran

[Sliferxxxx]

Aus is actually very strong in home grounds since Bumrah has debuted, Bumrah has picked up 60-70 wickets in Aus at avg of 17 and many start thinking that Aus must be weak that's why.

Since Bumrah debuted, if you exclude India as opposition, Aus batting has scored 45-46 runs per wickets.

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Now if some posters make an argument that this 60-70 wickets against your best opposition in their den is same as picking them at home or picking them against minnows then not sure I can add much. If you step up against best oppositions in their home then I personally rate players veyr high. I don't think all wickets or runs are same. same reason I rate Marshall, McGrath etc high. Not for their home dominance otherwise Jadeja will belong with them as best bowlers.

Agreed with everything.

 

[Randomfan]

IK’s peak was between 1980-1986.

I wish some one can make a one final date for IK' peak. Different posters throw different start and end dates. That' why I shared entire test by test for IK away against non-minnows for period lwhen he was good and asked anyone to find the best longest stretch and share.

Let's see 1980-1986: It's literally 10 away tests against non-minnows. I had removed minnows for everyone.




You may argue that 10 tests are same as 30 tests, I beg to differ. I took 25 tests as cut off, but that was just my cut off. Many greats had 30-40 or even longer stretches. Here you are arguing about 10 test. I am sorry, that's just too little. It does not matter what were the reasons. With 10 tests, we will start having lots of other pacers. next, some one will say that 5 test away stretch.

Now it will be perfectly all right to say that IK belongs in list of sub 20 avg away stretch of pacers with cut off og 10 away tests against non-minnows. I simply don't see him as a candiate when talking about best away stretches because 10 tests are to little for me. You are free to come to a different conclusion.

 

[Randomfan]

Your analysis of 20 away test stretch has a flaw that someone might be at his prime for 7 years but not played 20 away tests. Someone could do the same analysis at home record of 20 test stretch and would find that Bumrah doesn’t feature in it but every single great from 70s onwards would feature in that.

It's not flawed. It simply shows the caliber of pacers when playing away. I had done for 25+ away tests to elimiate noise. I also did for home and away combined as well with 40+ tests.

You can also do only for home, but I had very little interest in finding out who are the biggest HTBs in history. Yes, you are correct. Bumrah won't feature in 20 home tests right now due to not playing. If he doesn't play 20 tests at home then he will never feature in a lsit with 20 tests cut off and it will be fine to say that Bumrah did not belong in the list of biggest HTBs in history with 20 tests cut off. Nothing wrong about that conclusion.

Away stretches came up in this thread after some one said IK had the best peak in 100 years of history. We all know bottle caps and home umpiring being a factor so making it a non-factor means looking at away stretches and comparing with others. Sorry, for me, 10 tests away for anyone is not going to make a cut. I did not even bother to look for IK's best stretch because it looked waste of time when I was compiling 25+ best stretches with sub 20 avg. 10 tests are not even in ball park of 25+ tests cut off.

Statistically, IK's peak is on top and it did made it to top in my 40+ tests home and away stretches. But quality wise, he won't figure in the top 5 peak. Marshall, Bumrah, McGrath, Hadlee etc had higher quality peaks. You can say that it's not IK's fault for playing only 10 tests away but we have to go by what players have actually done. Many othes have played 30, 40 or even 50 good away tests in one stretch. I did not list longest stretch for eveyone. I only tried to optimize best avg in 25+ tests.

 

[subshakerz]

Entire away test by test record of IK is presented below for cherrypicked period when he was in good phase. Go ahead pick the best stretch out of it.

The thread is about peak

 

[subshakerz]

The most recent Australia series had Bumrah playing Usman, Smith, Marnus and Head that's a pretty handy lineup. That's as good as any from the 80s barring the WI. My mistake, I forgot about the WI.

Yeah you said it was better. The lineups he faced in Aus in his peak included Chappell, Border, Hughes.

 

[Randomfan]

The thread is about peak

Yes and quality of peak is vital part in discussing peak.

Some one can find Jadeja peak and starts praising it, But it would make sense to check quality of peak and not just praise peak based on home dominance.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not flawed. It simply shows the caliber of pacers when playing away.

Let's just cut through your BS. Here are the away series he played in his 80 to 88 bowling peak:

India 79/80, 19 wickets@19
Aus 80/81, 16 wickets@19
England 82, 21 wickets@18
SL 85, 15 wickets@18
India 86, 8 wickets @49
England 87, 21 wickets@21
WI 88, 23 wickets@18.

This is all on top of averaging insanely at home (yes even in tests when neutral umpires were present).

Anything thinking the above is sub par or doesn't match up to or exceed Bumrah is just fooling themselves and others.

 

[Randomfan]

Let's just cut through your BS. Here are the away series he played in his 80 to 88 bowling peak:

India 79/80, 19 wickets@19
Aus 80/81, 16 wickets@19
England 82, 21 wickets@18
SL 85, 15 wickets@18
India 86, 8 wickets @49
England 87, 21 wickets@21
WI 88, 23 wickets@18.

This is all on top of averaging insanely at home (yes even in tests when neutral umpires were present).

Anything thinking the above is sub par or doesn't match up to or exceed Bumrah is just fooling themselves and others.

Why don't you present the longest away stretches against non-minnows with combined Avg and SR for that stretch. We have the same for other greats. We can then compare. It's simple, otherwise anyone can say anything.

 

[subshakerz]

Why don't you present the longest away stretches against non-minnows with combined Avg and SR for that stretch. We have the same for other greats. We can then compare. It's simple, otherwise anyone can say anything.

Longest away stretches? I already gave the series there, anybody can judge.

Stop deflecting.

 

[Randomfan]

Longest away stretches?

This thread is about a comparing peaks, nor overall career performance. Stop deflecting.

Yes, we are trying to discuss quality of peak. If you are arguing that IK has best statistical peak then you don't need to argue. I established that and said the same in this thread.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Statistically correct, but peak seems to be largely based on home record. Away record is pretty ordinary compared to other greats even during his best phase. Great bowlers should have similar trends home and away during their peaks. Yes, he had some great series, but no big consistent stretch when playing away.

"Ordinary compared to other greats"? He had obscene numbers everywhere except for literally one series in India in 1987 which was played on some of the flattest decks ever.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Anyway, @subshakerz has already said peer opinion matters. Imran was being called a cheat and wasnt considered as good as Marshall or Lillee or Hadlee even during his peak. Whereas Bumrah has even Australians sucking his schlong saying he'd destroy Don Bradman. This is not close. Bumrah>Imran because some people say so.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Roberts was rated as a better bowler than Imran by their peers tbh

 

[subshakerz]

I established that and said the same in this thread.

Great then we are agreed who has the best peak.

 

[subshakerz]

Roberts was rated as a better bowler than Imran by their peers tbh

Imran was considered being the best bowler around 82/83 around the time he got the Wisden Cricketer of the Year. Then got injured for two years and Marshall took that mantle.

 

[Randomfan]

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"Ordinary compared to other greats"? He had obscene numbers everywhere except for literally one series in India in 1987 which was played on some of the flattest decks ever.

Other greats have sub 20 avg agaisnt non-minnows for 30 test or even 40 and 50 tests. That's more insane and when some one present is for 10 tests then calling it ordinary compared to 30-50 tests is not really wrong. I was poresented with 10 tests against non-minnows earlier.

The stretch you are presenting is much better than 10 tests sample. You have 22 tests against non-minnows. to make apple to apple comparison,

IK's best away stretch lasting 22 tests against non-minnows:



How does it stack up with others,

Total 7 bowlers with sub 20 away avg with 25 tests against non-minnows. [ Many have much longer stretches with sub 20 avg ]

1. Malcom Marshall ( 8 Dec 1980 and 21 Jul 1988 ) : 28 tests - 151 wickets - Avg 17.84 - SR 41
2. Jasprit Bumrah ( 18 Aug 2018 - 15 Jan 2025 ) : 29 tests - 144 wickets - Avg 18.91 - SR 42
3. Glen McGrath ( 5 Mar 1999 - 21 Jul 2005 ) : 31 tests - 153 wickets - Avg 18.95 - SR 47
4. Curtly Ambrose (21 Jul 1988 - 6 Jul 1995) : 25 tests - 129 wickets - Avg 19.06 - SR 49
5. Alan Davidson (11 Jun 1953 - 6 Jul 1961) : 25 tests - 93 wickets - Avg 19.15 - SR 65
6. Richard Hadlee ( 27 Jul 1978 - 2 Dec 1988 ) : 26 tests - 156 wickets - Avg 19.21 - SR 47
7. Joel Garner ( 18 Feb 1977 - 12 Mar 1987 ) : 29 tests - 136 wickets - Avg 19.74 - SR 50

You will be tempeted to think that hey what's the diference between 22 tests and 29 tests. Many had actually much longer stretches like 35 - 60 tests with sub 20 avg against non-minnows. I did not list their entire sub 20 avg stretch because I was trying to optimize avg and not number of tests with sub 20 avg.

Compared to that 22 tests with avg od 20.87 is ordinary. Don't focus on word ordinary, focus on compared to others.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yeah you said it was better. The lineups he faced in Aus in his peak included Chappell, Border, Hughes.

I already admitted my mistake ie I forgot about the WI. Current Australia is not better than WI that Imran faced in the late 70s or early 80s. I'd put current Australia equal to or just below Australia with Chappell and Border though. In any event, Bumrah tore apart Australia in Australia like not other bowler has b4. That's special.

 

[subshakerz]

I already admitted my mistake ie I forgot about the WI. Current Australia is not better than WI that Imran faced in the late 70s or early 80s. I'd put current Australia equal to or just below Australia with Chappell and Border though. In any event, Bumrah tore apart Australia in Australia like not other bowler has b4. That's special.

Sure but Imran did that to India in Pak in 82/83 on flat tracks. He did that to WI in 86 as well with 18 wickets@11.

 

[Randomfan]

Great then we are agreed who has the best peak.

Yes, we established that statistically IK had the best peak. Same as saying, Sanga is the best batsman statistically in the last 50 years.

Whole lot different than the best peak or the best batsman in the last 50 years.

If you only concerend about the first then hardly anything to debate. Full agreement there.

 

[Coronis]

Yes, we established that statistically IK had the best peak. Same as saying, Sanga is the best batsman statistically in the last 50 years.

Whole lot different than the best peak or the best batsman in the last 50 years.

If you only concerend about the first then hardly anything to debate. Full agreement there.

Pretty sure Smith had a better peak than Sanga. Even in terms of just raw numbers.