Sliferxxxx
U19 Cricketer
Ok what's the best batting batting lineup that both McGrath and Warne faced? Easy answer: India by far. How did either bowler do? Lol lol it wasn't close.
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Which team would win
- Thread starter govinda indian fan
- Start date
kyear2
International Coach
Muralitharan averaged 45 in India, got hammered in Australia and for taken apart at home by Lara.
Same for Warne, averaged 40 in the Caribbean over 40 in India.
I suppose it was only Sachin and Lara that were able to neutralize the spinners? No, it wasn't.
Sobers and Viv were all good to great players of spin. They both faced the quartet in India, Underwood, with Sobers facing Benaud etc. I assume you're next argument would be they aren't the calibre of spinners that Warne and Murali are. But the only batsmen of the calibre of Sobers and Viv that they faced were again, Lara and Tendulkar.
But it's your presumption that Warne would have the upper hand over either and the determining factor in a series?
And besides being pulled out of your backside does that come from.
Sobers didn't struggle in any spin friendly conditions and Viv played well in Pakistan and India.
Mine is based on how Warne and Murali performed vs quality players of spin.
No, I don't believe Warne would be a determining factor in said series and have not been presented with anything that would make change that opinion.
Warne being a spinner is some what an disadvantage naturally in these areas, but recall his percentage of wickets being heavily skewed towards the lower order, well below Murali (for obvious reasons) and even for AnkitJ's effort for value of wicket he was quite low, 26th to be precise.
Warne is a top tier ATG and an elite bowler, and spinners have their role in the game, they've never quite (in anything approaching neutral conditions) been the game changers they're being made out to be, not vs quality oppositions. And not generally comparable to pacers.
In the conditions specially referenced in this thread, no I don't see Warne troubling this lineup.
kyear2
International Coach
The rest are Lara and Headley.
Lara no questions there, Headley only faced on AT spinner and despite initially struggling he worked on his game to the extent that Grum called him the best onside player he had bowled to.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
A league below Hoggard though.
kyear2
International Coach
A quick Google search found two studies with regards to value of wickets. Both lists, as well as ankit's, have Ambrose, McGrath and Marshall at the very top.
The percentage of top and middle order wickets etc.
Oh, and I watched them.
I'm not remotely saying that Warne isn't a great bowler, he's not nearly as good as McGrath and especially so with regards to get top order bats
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
The funny thing is if the scenario was Aus ATG XI against an Indian ATG XI, all these reservations against downplaying Warne would go out the window. It wouldn't be a question if Gavaskar would do well against Warne but it is with Sobers apparently.
Coronis
International Coach
Huh, would not have guessed a fast bowler is more likely to take top order wickets than a spinner.
kyear2
International Coach
Not you apparently.
Victor Ian
International Coach
There is a lot of undue love towards Viv. Like, it's due, but not in isolation. On the whole, is he better than Smith. Nope. Both excelled and had mad averages which then fell away. Surmissing that Richards would own Warne is ****ing stupid when he was below par in teams with holland bennet and hogan (who are these nobodies of spin?). In sydney he was holland and bennets bitch.
There is a lot of under rating of Lillee too. If you are going to take him when he was recovering from a back injury, then we are taking ambrose when he was cooked. whatever the windies have as advantage with their 4 horseman is undone by what australia has in warne. Australia is not playing Warne circa injury. they are taking early or late warne. Otherwise they are taking O'Rielly.
In all, even if you want to dream that the Windies are actually ahead in the bowling stakes, Gilly (Australia's viv) and Bradman kind of mean The Windies are pushing **** uphill. Pull your head in revisionists.
There is a lot of under rating of Lillee too. If you are going to take him when he was recovering from a back injury, then we are taking ambrose when he was cooked. whatever the windies have as advantage with their 4 horseman is undone by what australia has in warne. Australia is not playing Warne circa injury. they are taking early or late warne. Otherwise they are taking O'Rielly.
In all, even if you want to dream that the Windies are actually ahead in the bowling stakes, Gilly (Australia's viv) and Bradman kind of mean The Windies are pushing **** uphill. Pull your head in revisionists.
OverratedSanity
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This is totally disngenuous and you know it. Kallis, Sanga, Dravid, ABdV are far closer to Viv/Sobers in quality than Underwood or Bedi were to Murali/Warne. (I'd even say Mahela and Inzi are close if not just as good as Viv when it comes to pure ability vs spin) . Whereas tere is a huge chasm from Warne/Murali to the next best spinner of the last 70 years . Sobers and viv could've done well against them. It's the easy assumption that they would dominate them like Sachin and Lara did that I find utterly ridiculous.
They didnt face spinners of anywhere close to this calibre. And many great batsmen in Warne/Murali's era found it hard against them.
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capt_Luffy
International Coach
Would just like to add, Smith did very well against Ashwin in India 2017. But I will find it a stretch to suggest he dominated Ashwin, even away in 20/21 BGT.
PlayerComparisons
International Captain
Smith averages 54.2 against Ashwin and 40.2 against Jadeja
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I think saying that Sobers and Viv would do well against Warne and Murali is not some wild assumption but a fairly reasonable one, anymore than saying Gavaskar would. Aggression was the best way to counter Warne. Dominate level is hard to say.
I love how single tests are determining playing ability against spin and not entire tours of India.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Exactly. There is literally no basis to say Gavaskar would as well.
Single Tests against nobodies vs Series against Some of the best players of spin ever assembled in an XI, at their home.
OverratedSanity
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The whole discussion was because you and @kyear2 said Warne would be completely neutralized and a non factor . That is indeed not a fairly reasonable assumption.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yes except I specified later in matches and on turning wickets.
But overall I said his output would be much less than worldclass pacers and I think the strength of the WI lineup on top of him not being worldclass in the first half of games is enough to base that assumption on.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Except if I said Warne would struggle against an Indian ATG XI, I don't think I would get such pushback because that association has already been built on Warne and India.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Exactly. Because Sachin and Sehwag especially have performed Great against Warne. There is basis for that. You could say Lara will smash Warne, but there's nothing backing the rest will do so as well.
JBMAC
State Captain
Aussies