Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[Johan]

This idea that Warne and Murali were scrubs (or non-factos) against great batsmen is such a nonsensical opinion that has taken over certain sections of CW. They struggled against one very specific set of players that played them well (and in Murali's case only in India, he dominated India in SL). They had consistently great performances against lots of amazing batting lineups. That they'd be reduced to bit part players against an ATG XI is totally divorced from reality.

I wonder where that came from

 

[subshakerz]

This idea that Warne and Murali were scrubs (or non-factos) against great batsmen is such a nonsensical opinion that has taken over certain sections of CW. They struggled against one very specific set of players that played them well (and in Murali's case only in India, he dominated India in SL). They had consistently great performances against lots of amazing batting lineups. That they'd be reduced to bit part players against an ATG XI is totally divorced from reality.

The argument is not that they will be non-factors but will be short of worldclass level output unless with pitch assistance.

 

[kyear2]

Right, arguably greatest spinner ever is not a factor. Why do you have him in your ATG XI then? Must be his slip fielding right?



Says the guy who has Barry Richards opening for him.



I like that you refuse to acknowledge that Bradman clearly makes their middle order superior.

How was Warne vs the best batsmen of his generation? How was he in India, the WI.

And he is the best spinner, and a spinner is needed, that's why he's in my AT team, but come on, top tier batsmen have owned him far more than any top tier pacer.

Yes Barry openers for me ahead of Hobbs, and he's far more proven vs great pacers than Hobbs is, there's no question about that. You're looking at labels, I'm looking at quality and competition.

You think Bradman is twice as good as any batsman ever, I don't. I think he's better, but 1930's Bradman vs late 1970's Viv, I'm good.

And Viv, Barry, Lara, Sobers all have levels of success against this level of bowlers, and in crazy conditions.

And again, this attack is insane.

I'm not saying that the ROW is going to win, I'm saying it's not nearly a foregone conclusion either.

And it's fine if you disagree, it's a free world.

 

[Coronis]

How was Warne vs the best batsmen of his generation? How was he in India, the WI.

And he is the best spinner, and a spinner is needed, that's why he's in my AT team, but come on, top tier batsmen have owned him far more than any top tier pacer.

Yes Barry openers for me ahead of Hobbs, and he's far more proven vs great pacers than Hobbs is, there's no question about that. You're looking at labels, I'm looking at quality and competition.

You think Bradman is twice as good as any batsman ever, I don't. I think he's better, but 1930's Bradman vs late 1970's Viv, I'm good.

And Viv, Barry, Lara, Sobers all have levels of success against this level of bowlers, and in crazy conditions.

And again, this attack is insane.

I'm not saying that the ROW is going to win, I'm saying it's not nearly a foregone conclusion either.

And it's fine if you disagree, it's a free world.

You’re seriously trying to say peak Bradman ~ Peak Viv

What a joke.

You literally called Warne a non factor. Stop playing a spinner then. Stick to your ****ing guns.

 

[DrWolverine]

Peak Viv who was equal to Don lasted 1 year

 

[Prince EWS]

Peak Viv who was equal to Don lasted 1 year

Even looking at it this way, which is generous, peak Viv was equivalent to average Don across a whole career. Bradman averaged over 400 in his peak year.

 

[DrWolverine]

Viv scored 7 tons in 19 innings in 1976
That comes to 1 ton in every 2.71 innings
Don scored 1 ton in every 2.75 innings across 21 yrs

 

[Coronis]

Viv scored 7 tons in 19 innings in 1976
That comes to 1 ton in every 2.71 innings
Don scored 1 ton in every 2.75 innings across 21 yrs

How’d he manage 21 years?

 

[DrWolverine]

How’d he manage 21 years?

1928-1948*
Missed 1939-1945 due to WW 2

 

[OverratedSanity]

How was Warne vs the best batsmen of his generation? How was he in India, the WI.

He wasn't great vs Lara or Sachin but he had a lot of success against other great batsmen of that gen like Kallis, Sanga, Dravid some of whom I'd argue are better players of spin than some batsmen in ATG XIs. Also, answer me this, why is India or WI actually the barometer here, those two weren't really the strongest teams Warne was facing were they ( choosing WI here is particularly strange because they didn't even have that many great batsmen lara aside ) ? SA were for a lot of his career and he had a great record vs them. He destroyed Pakistan/SL on several occasions and they had some classy players of spin. And Murali dominated india at home too and was singlehandedly preventing that great lineup from winning a series in SL for a decade.

I see it much more likely that Warne and Murali give other ATG batsmen like Viv, Sobers, Barry Richards (lol) etc. a really tough challenge than them being "non-factors" because they were levels above any spinner they ever faced. The fact that Tendulkar and Lara (and a few other indian players ) dominated them being used to conclude all ATG batsmen would thus not struggle against them is honestly such a massive stretch that it should be obvious to you.

 

[Coronis]

1928-1948*
Missed 1939-1945 due to WW 2

Maths check

 

[Prince EWS]

Maths check

If he only played in 1928 is that zero years?

 

[Coronis]

If he only played in 1928 is that zero years?

More like 0.08 years.

 

[DrWolverine]

I wonder what would his record be if it was not interrupted by war

 

[peterhrt]

could you provide some stats of Merchant vs quality bowlers in FC?

Merchant faced several good bowlers in first-class cricket. Number of dismissals by the better ones (including Tests):

5 - Verity
4 - Gubby Allen
3 - Mankad, Nissar
2 - Dooland, Ghulam Ahmed
1 - Amar Singh, Bedser, Fazal Mahmood, Larwood, Ramadhin, Statham, Tribe
0 - Bailey, Bowes, Laker, Miller, Tom Pritchard, Tarrant, Voce, Jack Walsh

When one or more of these bowlers was in the opposition, Merchant scored 3762 runs at an average of 60.67, with 12 centuries.

Merchant normally opened the batting in England, but not in India. 25 of his 45 first-class hundreds came when he batted between numbers three and six.

Bedser said he was the best overseas batsman he ever saw on rain-affected English pitches.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I wonder what would his record be if it was not interrupted by war

Bradman probably would have retired at 1942-44 ish unless his wife stopped him. He would have never came back after WW2 at first place unless it was for her. So, all pure imagination imho.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

He wasn't great vs Lara or Sachin but he had a lot of success against other great batsmen of that gen like Kallis, Sanga, Dravid some of whom I'd argue are better players of spin than some batsmen in ATG XIs. Also, answer me this, why is India or WI actually the barometer here, those two weren't really the strongest teams Warne was facing were they ( choosing WI here is particularly strange because they didn't even have that many great batsmen lara aside ) ? SA were for a lot of his career and he had a great record vs them. He destroyed Pakistan/SL on several occasions and they had some classy players of spin. And Murali dominated india at home too and was singlehandedly preventing that great lineup from winning a series in SL for a decade.

I see it much more likely that Warne and Murali give other ATG batsmen like Viv, Sobers, Barry Richards (lol) etc. a really tough challenge than them being "non-factors" because they were levels above any spinner they ever faced. The fact that Tendulkar and Lara (and a few other indian players ) dominated them being used to conclude all ATG batsmen would thus not struggle against them is honestly such a massive stretch that it should be obvious to you.

India is the barometer because they weren't the best team but their batting for much of Warne and Murali's career the best outside of Australia. Simple as that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

India is the barometer because they weren't the best team but their batting for much of Warne and Murali's career the best outside of Australia. Simple as that.

Still don't find the argument of Warne not being significant to make any sense.

 

[kyear2]

You’re seriously trying to say peak Bradman ~ Peak Viv

What a joke.

You literally called Warne a non factor. Stop playing a spinner then. Stick to your ****ing guns.

I'm not saying they're equal, but no where near double either. And Viv's prime was square in the middle of sporting pitches and ATG bowlers.

Dear God why are you so upset about this.

No, spinners have traditionally not have as large an impact vs good batsmen as pacers have had. Don't think this is really disputable.

Not even Warne, and you're the one who sold me on the idea of over rates and needed variety on spinning pitches.

 

[Coronis]

I'm not saying they're equal, but no where near double either. And Viv's prime was square in the middle of sporting pitches and ATG bowlers.

Dear God why are you so upset about this.

No, spinners have traditionally not have as large an impact vs good batsmen as pacers have had. Don't think this is really disputable.

Not even Warne, and you're the one who sold me on the idea of over rates and needed variety on spinning pitches.

Your inability to accept Bradman continues to amaze. As does your ability to only push extra on Windies players even when talking of a RoW XI.

You called him a non factor. Are you just using words without knowing their meaning or…