Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[subshakerz]

Obviously Lillee was unproven. We also have to accept Ambrose & Garner were much in Asia..

Ambrose effectively has nothing in SL and India and mixed returns in Pakistan.

So Aus, Eng and WI account for nearly 90 percent of his wickets. Very similar to Lillee with Aus, Eng and NZ. He should be bracketed with him.

 

[Van_Sri]

South Asia XI : 1) Saeed Anwar 2) Sunil Gavaskar 3) Rahul Dravid 4) Sachin Tendulkar 5) Javed Miandad 6) Kumar Sangakkara+ 7) Shakib Al Hasan 8) Imran Khan* 9) Wasim Akram 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Jasprit Bumrah - Wasim and Bumrah shares the New Ball followed by Imran and once the Ball is old Murali and Shakib will take over.

 

[subshakerz]

Greater India XI : 1) Saeed Anwar 2) Sunil Gavaskar 3) Rahul Dravid 4) Sachin Tendulkar 5) Javed Miandad 6) Kumar Sangakkara+ 7) Shakib Al Hasan 8) Imran Khan* 9) Wasim Akram 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Jasprit Bumrah

Greater India?

That is a fair XI. I would argue for Kumble but Shakib certainly makes sense too.

Sehwag likely goes for Anwar too tho Anwar was a more quality bat. Bumrah still a bit early to be ahead of Waqar for me.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Which is why I say Ambrose has a similar issue to what Lillee has, small samples outside of his favored bowling places.

It's not similar because for one, Australia in Ambrose's time was disticntly the best batting lineup. Lillee played one test in the West Indies. 2nd Ambrose actually did great in Australia something only Akram amongst his contemporaries managed. 3rd Ambrose wasn't piss poor in his limited sample size in Asia like Lillee was. It's not farfetched to assume given more tests in South Africa and NZ Ambrose would clean up, he has good records in both countries. And with more matches in Asia i don't see him averaging much more than say around 25 with his sr and wpm suffering. That's it.

Imo, you can't hold it against Ambrose's over something he had no control over. He missed the only opportunity to tour India in 1994; he was injured. Even in the countries he played extensively, let's not just assume that he played only on favorable wickets. For example, in the WI he would've played at two of the flattest wickets on earth: ARG and Bourda. In Australia: Sydney. In England Kensington etc.

 

[Johan]

South Asia XI : 1) Saeed Anwar 2) Sunil Gavaskar 3) Rahul Dravid 4) Sachin Tendulkar 5) Javed Miandad 6) Kumar Sangakkara+ 7) Shakib Al Hasan 8) Imran Khan* 9) Wasim Akram 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Jasprit Bumrah

just say subcontinent bro

1. Vijay Merchant
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Javed Miandad
6. VVS Laxman
7. Risabh Pant (WK)
8. Imran Khan (C)
9. Wasim Akram
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Jasprit Bumrah

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Ambrose effectively has nothing in SL and India and mixed returns in Pakistan.

So Aus, Eng and WI account for nearly 90 percent of his wickets. Very similar to Lillee with Aus, Eng and NZ. He should be bracketed with him.

No, because Australia was the best team during Ambrose's time where as England/NZ were not remotely so in Lillee's. Ambrose is one of two bowlers from the 90s who can claim to have been great in Australia. That's not by coincidence. It's no wonder the last time a team beat Aus in Aus for 15 years was mostly due to Ambrose.

 

[Van_Sri]

Greater India?

That is a fair XI. I would argue for Kumble but Shakib certainly makes sense too.

Sehwag likely goes for Anwar too tho Anwar was a more quality bat. Bumrah still a bit early to be ahead of Waqar for me.

Greater India - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[subshakerz]

It's not similar because for one, Australia in Ambrose's time was disticntly the best batting lineup. Lillee played one test in the West Indies. 2nd Ambrose actually did great in Australia something only Akram amongst his contemporaries managed. 3rd Ambrose wasn't piss poor in his limited sample size in Asia like Lillee was. It's not farfetched to assume given more tests in South Africa and NZ Ambrose would clean up, he has good records in both countries. And with more matches in Asia i don't see him averaging much more than say around 25 with his sr and wpm suffering. That's it.

Australia was literally perfect bowling conditions for someone like Ambrose. Even post peak he was capable of winning games there but nowhere else. He wasnt the same threat in his NZ and SA series.

You cant speculate about him in the SC. Especially if he played post peak he would struggle to take wickets as he had no cutters or swing.

Imo, you can't hold it against Ambrose's over something he had no control over. He missed the only opportunity to tour India in 1994; he was injured. Even in the countries he played extensively, let's not just assume that he played only on favorable wickets. For example, in the WI he would've played at two of the flattest wickets on earth: ARG and Bourda. In Australia: Sydney. In England Kensington etc.

Wow these are all familiar defenses we hear for Lillee.

 

[Van_Sri]

Greater India?

That is a fair XI. I would argue for Kumble but Shakib certainly makes sense too.

Sehwag likely goes for Anwar too tho Anwar was a more quality bat. Bumrah still a bit early to be ahead of Waqar for me.

I took Anwar over Sehwag because he was more consistent in various pitches across the world unlike Sehwag who clearly struggled in England, New Zealand and South Africa. When you face the best bowlers technically sound players are better so went with Anwar the best opener from subcontinent in 90s. Shakib is a better choice because you already have Murali in the team so need someone who can bat and bowl spin to assist him.

 

[subshakerz]

No, because Australia was the best team during Ambrose's time where as England/NZ were not remotely so in Lillee's. Ambrose is one of two bowlers from the 90s who can claim to have been great in Australia. That's not by coincidence. It's no wonder the last time a team beat Aus in Aus for 15 years was mostly due to Ambrose.

The question isn't on team quality. It's on playing and succeeding in largely friendly bowling conditions and this applies to both Ambrose and Lillee.

 

[DrWolverine]

Ambrose effectively has nothing in SL and India and mixed returns in Pakistan.

So Aus, Eng and WI account for nearly 90 percent of his wickets. Very similar to Lillee with Aus, Eng and NZ. He should be bracketed with him.

Fair enough.

 

[Van_Sri]

Greater India?

That is a fair XI. I would argue for Kumble but Shakib certainly makes sense too.

Sehwag likely goes for Anwar too tho Anwar was a more quality bat. Bumrah still a bit early to be ahead of Waqar for me.

Bumrah’s Overseas performance better than Waqar already.

 

[DrWolverine]

WI/SA/Eng/NZ/AUS fast bowlers in Asia since 1970

 

[subshakerz]

Bumrah’s Overseas performance better than Waqar already.

Yes. But if he retired today, not enough output for me to get ahead of Waqar

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Australia was literally perfect bowling conditions for someone like Ambrose. Even post peak he was capable of winning games there but nowhere else. He wasnt the same threat in his NZ and SA series.


Wow these are all familiar defenses we hear for Lillee.

Idk why you keep mentioning Lillee, who holds anything against Lillee? Pundits usually have him as the greatest, i disagree but that's how it is.

Anyway, in NZ he literally played that series right after injury and in South Africa he wasn't poor. The WI team was poor.

You say Ambrose only played/did well in conditions that favored seam/pace but I'm curious. Imran played in NZ, Australia, WI and England and those places favor pace as well no? Yet collectively over 37 matches in those countries, Imran went at 26 with a SR of 60. Oh also fwiw, Imran didnt do that well in Asia per se. He was great at home like any other cricketer but was so so in India (nobody counts SL because they were minnows). I know you well though, you'll argue "context," Imran wasn't ready in the 70s, he was injured, his mom died bla bla bla. But won't afford any context to Curtly like the fact that he too was injured which affected him post 1994 or that he had no control over WI scheduling.

 

[Van_Sri]

Waqar Younis Outside Pakistan : 211 Wickets @26.06 and Jasprit Bumrah Outside India : 158 Wickets @20.05. 54 Wickets more Required for Bumrah to surpass Waqar in the Overseas.

 

[Van_Sri]

Yes. But if he retired today, not enough output for me to get ahead of Waqar

But Bumrah gave much better quality output. His Record in Australia far superior to Waqar

 

[DrWolverine]

Why is Pant playing at number 7 position? He plays best at number 5.

 

[subshakerz]

Idk why you keep mentioning Lillee, who holds anything against Lillee? Pundits usually have him as the greatest, i disagree but that's how it is.

Anyway, in NZ he literally played that series right after injury and in South Africa he wasn't poor. The WI team was poor.

Lillee gets held back from being among the top ATG pacers for unproven outside his chosen conditions. Same applies to Ambrose.

And I never said he was poor in NZ and SA. Just not the same threat as in Aus.

You say Ambrose only played/did well in conditions that favored seam/pace but I'm curious. Imran played in NZ, Australia, WI and England and those places favor pace as well no? Yet collectively over 37 matches in those countries, Imran went at 26 with a SR of 60. Oh also fwiw, Imran didnt do that well in Asia per se. He was great at home like any other cricketer but was so so in India (nobody counts SL because they were minnows). I know you well though, you'll argue "context," Imran wasn't ready in the 70s, he was injured, his mom died bla bla bla. But won't afford any context to Curtly like the fact that he too was injured which affected him post 1994 or that he had no control over WI scheduling.

What context can make Ambrose playing 90 percent in Aus, Eng and WI better? He didn't succeed outside there. Let me know.

And yeah if you like I can provide context for Imran in Aus, WI, Eng, etc but I have a feeling you don't want to hear. Fact is Imran has more well rounded success.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

The question isn't on team quality. It's on playing and succeeding in largely friendly bowling conditions and this applies to both Ambrose and Lillee.

Imran played in those same bowling conditions, so shouldn't his record in NZ, Eng, Aus and WI be better? And especially so since Nz, Aus and Eng donot remotely compare to 90s Australia.