Wasim Akram vs Dennis Lillee

[kyear2]

So now you switch to RPM. Why not RPI?


You are comparing a 6/7 lower bat with among the best middle order bats of the decade and are expecting their RPM to be the same?


Dude you don't have to lie. I never said he was a middle order bat. I said bare minimum specialist level 6/7 lower order bat.



No they aren't. Looks like you ignored the entire RPI to wicket conversion chat we had in the other thread. Kallis didn't come close to Imran.


I'm sorry you are so hurt by Imran being seen as the natural next to Sobers by many.

We're talking about production, gross production and taking about wpm Kallis. It's also about gross impact.

No, you're saying he averaged 44 in the decade. That's saying he's a top level batsman and comparable to these guys. A top 6 batsman is a top order batsman.

In the 80's 28 batsmen scored more runs than Imran, 16 took more wickets than Kallis in the 2000's. We're looking at output, that's your issue with Kallis.

Who's hurt and who's the many who has him close to Sobers?

He's 2nd yeah, close, no.

You're the one who constant pushes this.

And while you're trying to question the parameters or find excuses, you haven't addressed the point of how far below his raw output is compared to his averages.

His produced 45 runs per game, and that includes the padding.

He averaged 4 runs less than Azhar but produced 20 runs less per match. During his peak.

If you want to call Imran a middle order batsman, what the no. 6 batsman is, the he's compared to them. You said he has the production and a border line specialists. He wasn't. You can go around in circles as much as you want, he simply wasn't.

Top 10 test player of all time, yes. Second best all rounder ever? Yes. But stop with the bullshit that he's well clear of Kallis and in direct comparison with Sobers, as you said earlier. The output in secondary is well off and in line with Kallis. Kallis was a 4th bowler, Imran the no. 7 bat. Both were best used, ideally suited and presented the best advantage to their teams as the 5th bowler and no. 8 bat.

Imran's competition is very much Kallis and Miller and that's the tier he's in. As an overall cricketer I would even add Hammond to that list, and he's very much in a tussle with Imran.

 

[kyear2]

Well he averaged 19 in the entire decade with the ball.

Yes just conveniently ignore his batting in 82 and 83 when he was at his zenith as bowler.

The problem is you arent going to be this nitpicky for Kallis.

So you like to say that Kallis couldn't bear the burden of bowling.

What happened to Imran after '83?

The problem is you only want to be nitpicky about Kallis.

 

[subshakerz]

You have ignored it. There were 4 proposed methods that didn't involve thumb sucking.

Comparing wickets to batting average- Kallis wins.
Comparing % of wickets to runs- Kallis wins
Comparing to contributions in secondary from top bats and top bowlers. Imran wins one and Kallis crushes one.

Oddly enough, you focus on one of these.

No dude. Sayon proposed a simple 20 run to conversion backed by data and you got into knots about that because it clearly showed Imran ahead.

 

[subshakerz]

So you like to say that Kallis couldn't bear the burden of bowling.

What happened to Imran after '83?

The problem is you only want to be nitpicky about Kallis.

After 83 he played as a pure batter for two years, had excellent bowling years in 86 to 88 and still scored runs in that period.

Like this is pretty pathetic level of nitpicking. I don't need to comb through the nitty gritty of Kallis' stats looking for flaws in this manner.

 

[kyear2]

After 13 years and 151 innings,
Marshall took 376 wickets at 20.94
22*5, 4*10

After 14 years and 151 innings
Akram took 368 wickets at 22.89
22*5, 4*10

Marshall had superior fielding support and era advantage.

If there is a modern top ATG with low WPM.. Its Ambrose.
Akram clearly a 4.5 WPM bowler for a normal 13 years career. That too without proper fielding support.

So Wasim is an ATG for me and for about 3 reasons, all but locked in as the 3rd seamer for my AT XI.

So not hating, but how do you account for his relative sub par performances vs the better teams and his very high percentage of tail end wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

No, you're saying he averaged 44 in the decade. That's saying he's a top level batsman and comparable to these guys. A top 6 batsman is a top order batsman.

I never said any of that. I just stated his average.

A 6/7 is not a top order bat. It's lower order bat with a lower output expected.

In fact, you know this because I argued this earlier in the RPI discussion we had, which you conveniently stopped replying to.

You are just a rank liar at this point.

 

[Bolo.]

No dude. Sayon proposed a simple 20 run to conversion backed by data and you got into knots about that because it clearly showed Imran ahead.

Sayon converted data from bowlers to a number close to 20. Sure, Imran is ahead as a bowling AR. Kallis' prImary wasn't bowling though. Why compare him to bowlers?

The same conversation for bats showed Kallis way ahead. Kallis is a better batting AR, and is ahead of the comparison points by a much greater degree than Imran is as a bowling one.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran's competition is very much Kallis and Miller and that's the tier he's in. As an overall cricketer I would even add Hammond to that list, and he's very much in a tussle with Imran.

Lol good luck convincing this board. They rank Imran higher than even I do.

They also rank Miller ahead of Kallis as an AR.

Take your tier and throw it in the pier.

 

[subshakerz]

Sayon converted data from bowlers to a number close to 20. Sure, Imran is ahead as a bowling AR. Kallis' prImary wasn't bowling though. Why compare him to bowlers?

The same conversation for bats showed Kallis way ahead. Kallis is a better batting AR, and is ahead of the comparison points by a much greater degree than Imran is as a bowling one.

That wasn't the conclusion at all.

Kallis in his WPI was around 20 runs in conversion, Imran RPI 30 runs. Imran was 50% better in his secondary discipline. Then you started quibbling.

 

[kyear2]

Why don't you spell it out.

Exact same things you downgrade Kallis for.

 

[subshakerz]

Exact same things you downgrade Kallis for.

So you never can be clear about what you are arguing it seems.

 

[kyear2]

After 83 he played as a pure batter for two years, had excellent bowling years in 86 to 88 and still scored runs in that period.

Like this is pretty pathetic level of nitpicking. I don't need to comb through the nitty gritty of Kallis' stats looking for flaws in this manner.

You didn't answer the question, what happens to Imran after '83?

Did he have an injury? Broken down? Couldn't handle the bowling load?

Re the nit picking... You started this.
You wanted to show that Kallis don't have the out put or production in his secondary skills.

Then you stated that Imran averaged 44 for the decade, devoid of context or output.

I have a simple question. Was Imran a 44 average quality batsman?

Since the answer is obviously no, then stop using it... especially trying to present a reality that doesn't exist.

 

[subshakerz]

You didn't answer the question, what happens to Imran after '83?

Did he have an injury? Broken down? Couldn't handle the bowling load?

Huh? I already answered he had a shin injury for two years.

Re the nit picking... You started this.

Lol so you admit you are nitpicking.

Then you stated that Imran averaged 44 for the decade, devoid of context or output.

No because it was stated that he did bat well during his bowling peak.

I have a simple question. Was Imran a 44 average quality batsman?

Except he literally averaged 44 over a decade and over 50 tests and scored 5 of his 6 tons . I know you would like to wave it off but it's still a fine achievement and nobody here is daft enough to forget he batted deep in the lower order so yeah we aren't comparing him with Crowe.

Since the answer is obviously no, then stop using it... especially trying to present a reality that doesn't exist.

How many times do I have to state he was a minimum standard lower order bat overall?

 

[Bolo.]

That wasn't the conclusion at all.

Kallis in his WPI was around 20 runs in conversion, Imran RPI 30 runs. Imran was 50% better in his secondary discipline. Then you started quibbling.

That was the conclusion from comparing them to bowlers. The conclusion from comparing them to bats was that Kallis was about a hundred times better. It's the same method applied to players from each of their primary. Why do you only want to look at bowlers?

 

[kyear2]

I never said any of that. I just stated his average.

A 6/7 is not a top order bat. It's lower order bat with a lower output expected.

In fact, you know this because I argued this earlier in the RPI discussion we had, which you conveniently stopped replying to.

You are just a rank liar at this point.

Christ dude, the no 6 position is a top order batsman. 7 is all rounder (wicket keeper or suitably bowler), 8 is lower order.

I'm a liar?

You consistently say he was a top 6 / 7 batsman when he clearly and obviously batted more at 8 than he did at 6.

You brought up the 44 average to convey that he had the average of a specialist batsman, knowing (as you point out for Kallis) that his production didn't nearly match that.

Seems like you're the upset one at this point.

 

[subshakerz]

You brought up the 44 average to convey that he had the average of a specialist batsman, knowing (as you point out for Kallis) that his production didn't nearly match that.

All these numbers about Imran in the 80s, his average, the not outs, whatever, have been circulated enough in this forum that me reminding someone he averaged good during his bowling prime is not going to suddenly make them forget he is a lower order bat with lower output. Everyone knows at this point.

I already addressed your other arguments and you refuse to counter my points.

Now please stop derailing these threads about Imran vs Kallis.

 

[kyear2]

Lol good luck convincing this board. They rank Imran higher than even I do.

They also rank Miller ahead of Kallis as an AR.

Take your tier and throw it in the pier.

They really don't. Look at the separation on votes between Sobers and Imran, then Imran and Kallis / Miller etc.

One vote could have swung Miller vs Kallis, and the result is likely the opposite. But I know you take great pride in that one.

And a straight up comp with Imran and Hammond as all round cricketers is quite close.

Top 8 bowler vs top 10 batsman. That's a tie.

Both un-rankable in secondary but Imran definitely ahead. But again, 44 runs a match is crazy, and that's in the '80's.

Hammond is the greatest slip fielder to have played the game. Period.

That's not comparable as cricketers?

And re the tiers, seems like you're getting really testy. As much as Bradman is unquestioned as the greatest batsman, so it is for Sobers and all rounders.

 

[subshakerz]

That was the conclusion from comparing them to bowlers. The conclusion from comparing them to bats was that Kallis was about a hundred times better. It's the same method applied to players from each of their primary. Why do you only want to look at bowlers?

No that was the conclusion from directly comparing their secondary disciplines together through conversion.

Imran as a bat was simply better in average output than Kallis as a bowler.

What you brought up was a mindless deflection to comparing Kallis to bats who may have never bowled an over ever lol and you expect folks to take that argument seriously

 

[sayon basak]

That was the conclusion from comparing them to bowlers.

That is a misrepresentation of the method. I didn't compare Imran or Kallis to anyone initially. My motive was just to assign a value to 1 wicket in terms of runs by comparing top batters to top bowlers, not comparing both of them to bowlers.

And then what you did was to compare top batters bowling with top bowlers batting, which doesn't make any sense; as I have stated earlier, top batters batting is comparable to top bowlers bowling, but top bowler's batting is not comparable to top batter's bowling.

Let me ask you this, 1 wickets=how many runs in your opinion?

 

[subshakerz]

They really don't. Look at the separation on votes between Sobers and Imran, then Imran and Kallis / Miller etc.

One vote could have swung Miller vs Kallis, and the result is likely the opposite. But I know you take great pride in that one.

Lol there you go again. Just like with Wisden.

Any vote or ranking you don't like you are going to find fault with the process. Like clockwork really.