Steven Smith vs Dale Steyn

[Sliferxxxx]

Sure let's just ignore the fact that Sachin played the 2Ws and Donald as teen, never struggled against them in a series and Lara never scored a ton against them and pretend they are equal.

Sachin may not have dominated high pace but he unlike Lara he didn't have a weakness either.

Lara simply had a bad technique against quality pace, particularly that directed towards his body, that affected his entire career.

Devon Malcolm vs "CLUELESS" Brian Lara

#cricket

m.youtube.com

We agree more than we disagree but you still so disagreeable.

Was it really necessary to post that clip vs Malcolm? While you're at it why don't you post Lara's actual output vs said bowler ie 400 runs in 3 innings at 100. We all already said Lara is uncomfortable vs pace but output is what matters. And his output vs pace wasn't any more or much less than his great contemporary. I dont care how uncomfortable he looked.

 

[subshakerz]

Was it really necessary to post that clip vs Malcolm? While you're at it why don't you post Lara's actual output vs said bowler ie 400 runs in 3 innings at 100. We all already said Lara is uncomfortable vs pace but output is what matters. And his output vs pace wasn't any more or much less than his great contemporary. I dont care how uncomfortable he looked.

Sometimes it is important to be illustrative since many here have a short memory on Lara. And he is being compared to Tendulkar, Hobbs, Sobers and Viv who don't have the same technical flaw in their games so it's fair to point it out. I think you need to be safe against pace if you want to be considered a top tier bat.

As for him or Tendulkar vs great pace, if you look with context, it is clear Tendulkar has a less problematic record.

 

[DrWolverine]

Sachin may have few flaws like not having a monster test series but in terms of technique he was perfect

 

[subshakerz]

Back to Smith vs Steyn, this is very close. I just went for Smith give the onslaught against him.

 

[subshakerz]

Disagree with most of your argument. Monster series is not just about run out put. It's about dominating and averaging in the 70+ range over the course of a series vs a challenging attack (greater the attack the better). For instance, Viv scored almost 400 runs in 4 innings vs a challenging attack in Australia in 1980. Sachin had plenty of opportunities to do the same vs South Africa in the 90s and Australia with McWarne. He didn't. Even that BGT in 1998 was vs Warne and a bunch of nobodies. The best he had was vs WI in 1997 over 6 innings. And I believe he had a great series vs Steyn away in the 2000s.

Also a top series in Australia in 2007 against a very good attack.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think that Viv series in Australia in 79/80 is great but that attack is made out to be some ATG level attack when it really really wasn't. I don't rate Hogg with injury issues and Pascoe and Dymock as particularly demonic opposition at all I'm sorry. Overrated af just like many things about viv.

I'd genuinely put it about the level of the 98 Australia attack at best marginally better. Come at me.

 

[Johan]

I think that Viv series in Australia in 79/80 is great but that attack is made out to be some ATG level attack when it really really wasn't. I don't rate Hogg with injury issues and Pascoe and Dymock as particularly demonic opposition at all I'm sorry. Overrated af just like many things about viv.

I'd genuinely put it about the level of the 98 Australia attack at best marginally better. Come at me.

isn't the entire point about the 79/80 series the performance against Lillee supported by Thompson/Hogg in the first game, Hogg/Dymock in second and Dymock/Pascoe in third

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Sometimes it is important to be illustrative since many here have a short memory on Lara. And he is being compared to Tendulkar, Hobbs, Sobers and Viv who don't have the same technical flaw in their games so it's fair to point it out. I think you need to be safe against pace if you want to be considered a top tier bat.

As for him or Tendulkar vs great pace, if you look with context, it is clear Tendulkar has a less problematic record.

So we agree technical flaws or whatever doesn't equate to output. Thanks. Because one of the most awkward player I've seen vs pace was Steve Waugh and he was head and shoulders above both Lara and Sachin vs great pace.

 

[OverratedSanity]

isn't the entire point about the 79/80 series the performance against Lillee

We're talking about the attack as a whole. Thomson was post shoulder injury and only played a game. Hogg was carrying an injury and bowled like 6 overs in one of the games. Pascoe and Dymock were nothing special. This is the attack that's being described as some great pace battery Viv took apart? Give me a ****ing break.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

We're talking about the attack as a whole. Thomson was post shoulder injury and only played a game. Hogg was carrying an injury and bowled like 6 overs in one of the games. Pascoe and Dymock were nothing special. This is the attack that's being described as some great pace battery Viv took apart? Give me a ****ing break.

You are aware that Viv himself was injured and even missed the subsequent NZ series as a result. I equate that attack to the Steyn attack Sachin made runs against in South Africa in the 2000s.

 

[Johan]

We're talking about the attack as a whole. Thomson was post shoulder injury and only played a game. Hogg was carrying an injury and bowled like 6 overs in one of the games. Pascoe and Dymock were nothing special. This is the attack that's being described as some great pace battery Viv took apart? Give me a ****ing break.

Thompson bowled pretty well in the serieses leading upto the first test and bowled a bunch there for Viv's hundred, but I don't really think Viv took apart a pace battery but one ATG + alright support, I don't really think anyone in this thread presented 79-80 as a pace battery being taken apart?

 

[subshakerz]

I think that Viv series in Australia in 79/80 is great but that attack is made out to be some ATG level attack when it really really wasn't. I don't rate Hogg with injury issues and Pascoe and Dymock as particularly demonic opposition at all I'm sorry. Overrated af just like many things about viv.

I'd genuinely put it about the level of the 98 Australia attack at best marginally better. Come at me.

It wasn't an ATG level attack but was one of the greatest batting series ever. It was a worldclass attack though and that many runs against them at that SR is definitely legendary. Especially because Lillee was the best bowler in the world at the time. Whenever an ATG pacer is dominated at home it becomes a special effort.

 

[subshakerz]

So we agree technical flaws or whatever doesn't equate to output. Thanks. Because one of the most awkward player I've seen vs pace was Steve Waugh and he was head and shoulders above both Lara and Sachin vs great pace.

I agree on Waugh. He wasn't awkward in that he couldn't play. He chose to allow himself the possibility to be hit by sacrificing shots for more runs.

But Lara's flaws did cost him as his career shows him struggling to consistently against higher pace quality bowlers.

 

[Coronis]

He makes it into an ATG team partially because of his bowling with those 4 and Sobers? His bowling is inconsequential


What's not inconsequential would be his slip fielding as his status as arguably the greatest first slip ever.

So basically he's making it on his batting and justifiably on his catching.

So interesting how a tertiary skill gets someone into a team

I shall not.

But interesting how a "tertiary" skill can get someone into an ATG team.

Jeez this is pathetic. I literally said I could have them ranked in any order on a different day. So why would I not then use secondary and tertiary skills as a differentiator? Of course I would, any sane person would if they rate players that close in their primary skillset.

What's the case? Seriously what's the case that Barrington, Sangakkara and Kallis are better batsmen that Viv Richards.

Did they face better bowlers, tougher pitches, excellent at any one skill like Viv did vs fast bowling? We're any of them rated the best batsman of their era, far less over a decade?

And I'll look it up, but after 87 tests I'm sure the averages were comparable at the very least. Did he had the overseas tours that Viv did? The peak? The dominance vs ATG peers?

A nice convenient arbitrary number… right in the middle of a series and in the middle of the period you claim he was the best batsman in the world. Interesting. And should I just ignore the 80 tests after that for Kallis? Or the 50 tests after that for Sangakkara? Get over the fact that some players aged like wine and your bloke aged like milk.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I agree on Waugh. He wasn't awkward in that he couldn't play. He chose to allow himself the possibility to be hit by sacrificing shots for more runs.

But Lara's flaws did cost him as his career shows him struggling to consistently against higher pace quality bowlers.

And Tendulkar,.even supposedly looking more assured didn't do much better. For goodness sake, prime Tendulkar averaged 27 and 40 (overall 30 odd vs Donald) in back to back series. I wish lara would've faced Donald at any point at home in his prime (90s).

 

[ankitj]

Mohammed Yousuf had better peak than Sachin in mid 2000s yet nobody compare with him.Yes I do think few years ago Smith when had better average is better than Sachin (if he bring his form back and play similar fashion for 3-4 years he will be above Sachin) but peak means nothing if you are inconsistent

The hell? Smith and inconsistent?

 

[ankitj]

Almost more impressive imo to have a second peak. Intuitively feels that much harder to return to that similar level of play after an extended period of downtime.

Tendulkar scored 7 test hundreds in 2010. I think that's the most test hundreds he scored in a single calendar year ever.

 

[kyear2]

Sachin may have few flaws like not having a monster test series but in terms of technique he was perfect

Perfect?

What was his record again vs Donald and Pollock and the WWs, specifically compared to said Lara?

 

[kyear2]

Jeez this is pathetic. I literally said I could have them ranked in any order on a different day. So why would I not then use secondary and tertiary skills as a differentiator? Of course I would, any sane person would if they rate players that close in their primary skillset.



A nice convenient arbitrary number… right in the middle of a series and in the middle of the period you claim he was the best batsman in the world. Interesting. And should I just ignore the 80 tests after that for Kallis? Or the 50 tests after that for Sangakkara? Get over the fact that some players aged like wine and your bloke aged like milk.

We're at ad hominem attacks now, great. For the past 10 years you've maintained that he makes your team for his catching, just pointing that out. Considering you took the exact opposite view in a thread just two days ago because you thought it was better to be a dick.

This is how I know that you have no interest to have an intellectually honest discussion and just here to criticize without actually contributing anything of your own.

I said if Viv retired the same time as Chappell, meaning after the same amount of tests, the numbers are similar. You didn't seem to understand, so I said after 87, as in 87 tests, the same number that Chappell played.

Sangakkara nor Kallis has the quality of series that Viv had, changed the game the way Viv did, faced and succeeded against the level of bowling that Viv did, won matches the way Viv did. None of them was rated as no 1 in the world for any period of time remotely comparable to Sir Richards.

So tell me the argument for them being better. Riding out the ends of careers in the flattest eras for tests vs bowlers Viv would have slaughtered.

The end of one's career, as you pointed out for Smith, does not diminish the quality of same.

Come again

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Perfect?

What was his record again vs Donald and Pollock and the WWs, specifically compared to said Lara?

They're going to say context and other bs. In back to back series vs Donald, the same Donald whom Lara averaged 31 against, Sachin did the exact same thing: 27 at home and 40 away. And later in 2000, another 36 at home. And on each side of those mediocre performances, Sachin did fine vs lesser attacks. So his form wasn't the issue.

Against Pakistan over 3 tests : 2 test series and 1 match from the Asian test championships in the late 90s, Sachin averaged at whopping: 30!! And all those matches we're in India. That's a grand total of 11 tests averaging in the 30s. "He didnt have any technical flaws." I guess maybe he an output vs great pace flaw.