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Rank them : Donald, Imran and Akram

Rank them


  • Total voters
    27

Bolo.

International Captain
You keep.mentioning highest peer rating. For most of his career Ambrose was the highest rated bowler, Donald was also best on the world for a period after Sir Curtly. Warne was also top of the roost for a good portion of time.

Yes Wasim could do more with the ball, the others were more effective wicket takers.
Pre injuries, it was a two horse race between Waqar and Ambrose for best bowler in the world in the early 90s.

Speaking of injuries, Bishop was the player who most looked like he was gonna knock these two off the pedestal. Maybe I overestimate him. Since guys like Mcgrath and Steyn I've come to appreciate how good just picking the most effective ball and repeating it is. There's a good chance he may just have been the Rabada of his time in both style and quality. But he was scary.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Pre injuries, it was a two horse race between Waqar and Ambrose for best bowler in the world in the early 90s.

Speaking of injuries, Bishop was the player who most looked like he was gonna knock these two off the pedestal. Maybe I overestimate him. Since guys like Mcgrath and Steyn I've come to appreciate how good just picking the most effective ball and repeating it is. There's a good chance he may just have been the Rabada of his time in both style and quality. But he was scary.
I think Bishop was potentially better than all of them. He could have been something special.

Re Ambrose and Waqar, Ambrose was doing it against better opposition, and the other thing. But we can see it differently.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
I think Bishop was potentially better than all of them. He could have been something special.

Re Ambrose and Waqar, Ambrose was doing it against better opposition, and the other thing. But we can see it differently.
Ambrose was doing it against much better teams. But Waqar was shredding teams like nobody had done since Barnes. I'm not really interested in debating who was better, and definitely not interested in debating 'other things', just saying nobody could challenge Waqar and Ambrose in the early 90s in terms of impact.

Why was Bishop potentially better than all of them? I also got that impression from seeing him early career, but I'm not sure exactly why. This is over 30 years ago. And I saw very little of Bishop. From what little I can remember, he looked a lot like early Rabada. Similar pace, some seam and swing, rhb mostly bowling outside offstump etc.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I think we all know why you are being so dicey about this. Suddenly you don't care who is ahead and who is behind.


I like you you micro-analyze Imran but don't do the same against Donald.

Imran had three series in his peak against WI, the best team in the world, in 80, 86 and 88, and was quality with the ball in all of them and was MOS in all of them. Overall has outstanding figures against WI.

Meanwhile, Donald only had quality returns in one series out of five (six if we include the last test) against Australia.


There isn't an issue with peer rating since even I consider Marshall and Hadlee better bowlers than Imran and Lillee as you know was before the time of all these pacers.

Please you need to get over you hang up over Imran. I implore you to take the time to listen to Jarrod Kimber discuss why Imran was so overlooked as an 80s cricketer and only got his due belatedly.

With all due respect, that's bullshit.

Hammond was in Bradman's shadow, he was still seen for his quality.

Outside of the Hall and Griffith days, Sobers wasn't on the best if teams and Australia and England still ruled the roost, be brought attention to himself. He because the 2nd great phenomenon of the test game.

In the 70's the WI weren't food, Holding and Viv put them on the map, in 2 years Viv was getting his due.

Hadlee played at the same time and he was still seen as a better bowler than Imran, did he play for a bigger team?

In the 80's everyone knew who Imran was, be serious dude. I was in the ****ing Caribbean.

He was one of the big 4 all rounders and after Botham's obvious decline he was seen as the leader of the pack, even if Hadlee was always the better bowler.

Imran Khan, an absolute beast of a cricketer and one of the greatest ever and for me a top 10 player of all time.

But keeping it a 💯

Captaincy: Even in that clip you referenced, he was noted to be "nothing special as a captain" tests or limited overs. In another Jarrod Kimber podcast on captaincy, he wasn't drafted in all of 12, and that's with an avid Pakistani hosting who said in the all rounder draft he would have picked him over Sobers. You speak of his legacy, and you can fuss all you want after, but his biggest legacy was teaching Wasim and Waqar how to ball tamper.

Batting: The ultimate not out merchant, and even then his batting average didn't pass 30 till (could be remembering incorrectly), '88? His average was soft as hell, and even in the period he was at his peak, still had a thousand runs less than Javed? He was never a "specialist" bat until he wasn't an opening bowler.

Bowling: You love to say he was a top five bowler, and accordingly merits his place in any XI. You said if he played in any other era he would have been seen as the best (in fairness player not bowler) in the world, well not unless he was travelling with his umps and the cameras weren't on him.

Imran was incredibly talented and he's a top 10 player, but you presented this one sided and obviously slanted view while blatantly ignoring the other side.

And yes, this excuse is bullshit. @peterhrt has posted on multiple occasions how he was part of the English establishment and in another of Kimber's podcasts speaks to how beloved he was even in Australia (and England) at a time where they were exactly open to people of color (his words not mine).

You've used excuses before like his captaincy overshadowed his bowling, now he wasn't well known and overshadowed by the West Indies? They were the second best team in the world and everyone knew it.

He was the 3rd best bowler of his era, over inflated batting (which is comparable to Kallis's bowling usage and wpm compared to average) and not one of the great captains.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Ambrose was doing it against much better teams. But Waqar was shredding teams like nobody had done since Barnes. I'm not really interested in debating who was better, and definitely not interested in debating 'other things', just saying nobody could challenge Waqar and Ambrose in the early 90s in terms of impact.

Why was Bishop potentially better than all of them? I also got that impression from seeing him early career, but I'm not sure exactly why. This is over 30 years ago. And I saw very little of Bishop. From what little I can remember, he looked a lot like early Rabada. Similar pace, some seam and swing, rhb mostly bowling outside offstump etc.
Bishop was quick, like peak Waqar / Patterson(?) fast, he would also (conventionally) swing it. He was seen as potentially Marshall's successor.

@Slifer can tell me if I'm remembering incorrectly.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
With all due respect, that's bullshit.

Hammond was in Bradman's shadow, he was still seen for his quality.

Outside of the Hall and Griffith days, Sobers wasn't on the best if teams and Australia and England still ruled the roost, be brought attention to himself. He because the 2nd great phenomenon of the test game.

In the 70's the WI weren't food, Holding and Viv put them on the map, in 2 years Viv was getting his due.

Hadlee played at the same time and he was still seen as a better bowler than Imran, did he play for a bigger team?

In the 80's everyone knew who Imran was, be serious dude. I was in the ****ing Caribbean.

He was one of the big 4 all rounders and after Botham's obvious decline he was seen as the leader of the pack, even if Hadlee was always the better bowler.

Imran Khan, an absolute beast of a cricketer and one of the greatest ever and for me a top 10 player of all time.

But keeping it a 💯

Captaincy: Even in that clip you referenced, he was noted to be "nothing special as a captain" tests or limited overs. In another Jarrod Kimber podcast on captaincy, he wasn't drafted in all of 12, and that's with an avid Pakistani hosting who said in the all rounder draft he would have picked him over Sobers. You speak of his legacy, and you can fuss all you want after, but his biggest legacy was teaching Wasim and Waqar how to ball tamper.

Batting: The ultimate not out merchant, and even then his batting average didn't pass 30 till (could be remembering incorrectly), '88? His average was soft as hell, and even in the period he was at his peak, still had a thousand runs less than Javed? He was never a "specialist" bat until he wasn't an opening bowler.

Bowling: You love to say he was a top five bowler, and accordingly merits his place in any XI. You said if he played in any other era he would have been seen as the best (in fairness player not bowler) in the world, well not unless he was travelling with his umps and the cameras weren't on him.

Imran was incredibly talented and he's a top 10 player, but you presented this one sided and obviously slanted view while blatantly ignoring the other side.

And yes, this excuse is bullshit. @peterhrt has posted on multiple occasions how he was part of the English establishment and in another of Kimber's podcasts speaks to how beloved he was even in Australia (and England) at a time where they were exactly open to people of color (his words not mine).

You've used excuses before like his captaincy overshadowed his bowling, now he wasn't well known and overshadowed by the West Indies? They were the second best team in the world and everyone knew it.

He was the 3rd best bowler of his era, over inflated batting (which is comparable to Kallis's bowling usage and wpm compared to average) and not one of the great captains.
What what a rant.

You never actually addressed Jarrod's points.

WI were that dominant that the Anglosphere had to give them credit. Pakistan weren't at that level of prominence yet and only really by the end of Imran's career did they get there.

Hadlee is a better bowler than Imran so no issue with the rating.

Jarrod already admitted everyone knew who Imran was but he was seen more because of the glamor and underrated.

He and Hadlee werent given their full dues because their wasn't a media complex attached to them as cricketers. You have previously admitted as much about Hadlee the bowler why not Imran?

About captaincy, you are relying on some no-name interviewers' opinions? Jarrod has already stated he considers Imran a great captain As for Wasim and Waqar, they wouldn't even be great bowlers in the first place if Imran wasn't there, that's his legacy despite your bitterness.

Imran was excellent away from home. Best in WI, best in WSC. Didn't need home umpires who actually helped all teams at the time.

Next time you are going to rant actually address the substance of the argument.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Ambrose and Warne aren't in this poll buddy. Donald is nowhere near Wasim in peer rating. Find me a bat who prefers Donald.
In 90s it was common to not separate test and ODI performances. Wasim being touted as the best pace bowler in the world was down to that IMO because he was really the best in the shorter format.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
In 90s it was common to not separate test and ODI performances. Wasim being touted as the best pace bowler in the world was down to that IMO because he was really the best in the shorter format.
I concede that's possible.

However, I do think there was a period between Ambrose decline and Donald peaking when Wasim still in his peak took the mantle, especially thanks to him performing against the Aussies in mid-90s.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
I concede that's possible.

However, I do think there was a period between Ambrose decline and Donald peaking when Wasim still in his peak took the mantle, especially thanks to him performing against the Aussies in mid-90s.
I recall after 1996 world cup experts were picking a world XI and not strictly sticking to performances in the tournament. They picked Ambrose and Waqar with the pithy comment "no question about these two". They gave Wasim a miss. This was 1996 and this was ODIs. Wasim's reputation couldn't have been higher in tests alone.

Just one anecdote but like many things from one's teens it's stuck in my mind.
 

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
I cannot ignore that Imran was a proven (self-confessed?) ball tamperer so I can't rate him, and his fellow Pakistani quicks, ahead of other ATGs.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I recall after 1996 world cup experts were picking a world XI and not strictly sticking to performances in the tournament. They picked Ambrose and Waqar with the pithy comment "no question about these two". They gave Wasim a miss. This was 1996 and this was ODIs. Wasim's reputation couldn't have been higher in tests alone.

Just one anecdote but like many things from one's teens it's stuck in my mind.
Fair enough. We all have these anecdotes. I recall the Carlton and United series in Australia in 96/97 when Pak, WI and Aus were playing and Bill Lawry calling Wasim the best bowler in the world.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Fair enough. We all have these anecdotes. I recall the Carlton and United series in Australia in 96/97 when Pak, WI and Aus were playing and Bill Lawry calling Wasim the best bowler in the world.
Waqar lost his mojo after 96 world cup, so yes Wasim was regarded the best after that but again it was based on both formats IMO
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I cannot ignore that Imran was a proven (self-confessed?) ball tamperer so I can't rate him, and his fellow Pakistani quicks, ahead of other ATGs.
They were pretty much all tampering in that era. Imran at least admitted it.

Holding: 'I won't pretend I never tampered with the ball'.

There's a reason Hadlee himself pushed for legalising ball tampering.
 

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