one ATG Pacer vs Pace Battery

[Johan]

the thread is comparing what unit of bowlers would outperform the others over the course of a career.

Unit A — One ATG Pacer averaging 22-23, 3 pacers averaging 31+ accross conditions

Unit B – 4 pacers, all averaging 26-28 accross conditions

 

[BazBall21]

Very easy

 

[subshakerz]

the thread is comparing what unit of bowlers would outperform the others over the course of a career.

Unit A — One ATG Pacer averaging 22-23, 3 pacers averaging 31+ accross conditions

Unit B – 4 pacers, all averaging 26-28 accross conditions

Unit A. A worldclass pacer as spearhead is going to win you more matches consistently than the rest and all he needs is decent support.

The drop off to a 27 averaging bowler is basically generally good bowling but less consistency in actual matchwinning.

 

[Arachnödouche2.0]

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Unit B

 

[ataraxia]

Unit A. A worldclass pacer as spearhead is going to win you more matches consistently than the rest and all he needs is decent support.

The drop off to a 27 averaging bowler is basically generally good bowling but less consistency in actual matchwinning.

You can't generalise a difference in bowling average from 22 to 27 as anything other than "worse" lmao

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Give or take a bit, but unit A is basically NZ with Hadlee, with unit B being NZ with the main 3 seamers + CDG.

B was more successful

 

[sayon basak]

the thread is comparing what unit of bowlers would outperform the others over the course of a career.

Unit A — One ATG Pacer averaging 22-23, 3 pacers averaging 31+ accross conditions

Unit B – 4 pacers, all averaging 26-28 accross conditions

(23+31*3)/4=29>26-28

So, unit B.

 

[DrWolverine]

1980s NZ team
Hadlee : Arguably the best ever
Chatfield : Average of 32
Cairns : Average of 32

2010s NZ team
Boult : Average of 27.5
Southee : Average of 29
Wagner : Average of 27.5

The 2010s NZ team performed more consistently

 

[subshakerz]

Give or take a bit, but unit A is basically NZ with Hadlee, with unit B being NZ with the main 3 seamers + CDG.

B was more successful

Um, Unit A drew in India and won in Aus and Eng and was unbeaten at home. If they were worse it was likely batting.

 

[subshakerz]

I am really surprised by the results here.
Folks are seriously underestimating the impact of having an actual worldclass bowler.

You aren't going to consistently challenge superior teams with regular good pacers. You may be more effective at bullying weaker teams though. However, a worldclass bowler is the weapon to actually level the playing field.

If you put Hadlee et al in the mid 2010s NZ side, you would not only win everywhere they did but likely score the odd victory in Ind, Aus and Eng. You definitely wouldn't be whitewashed at home by Aus.

 

[subshakerz]

1980s NZ team
Hadlee : Arguably the best ever
Chatfield : Average of 32
Cairns : Average of 32

2010s NZ team
Boult : Average of 27.5
Southee : Average of 29
Wagner : Average of 27.5

The 2010s NZ team performed more consistently

The 80s team was unbeatable at home and scored overseas wins as well with much weaker batting.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

What are the stats of Southee, Boult, and Wagner when they all played together? Pretty sure they were all world class during that period

 

[Johan]

I'm pretty sure the Quaret era NZ batting was quite a bit stronger than Hadlee era NZ batting no?

 

[subshakerz]

You can't generalise a difference in bowling average from 22 to 27 as anything other than "worse" lmao

The issue is which attack can win matches.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I'm pretty sure the Quaret era NZ batting was quite a bit stronger than Hadlee era NZ batting no?

Pre-Jamieson (perhaps 2nd best ever)


Latham
Raval
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls
Watling
De Grandhomme
Santner/Craig/Ajaz
+ 3

Vs (83-86 ish) pre Andrew Jones who was world class

Wright
Edgar
Reid
Crowe
Howarth/J Crowe
Coney
Hadlee
Smith
Bracewell

 

[Coronis]

What are the stats of Southee, Boult, and Wagner when they all played together? Pretty sure they were all world class during that period

40 matches

Boult 182 @ 25.16 SR 51.1 7 5’fers 1 10’fer
Southee 182 @ 25.67 SR 52.8 5 5’fers 1 10’fer
Wagner 171 @ 25.91 SR 50.8 6 5’fers

Wagner bowled in one fewer innings.

Very balanced attack.

No other NZ bowler played in more than 14 matches (de Grandhomme) or took more than 36 wickets (Jamieson) in those 40 matches.

 

[ataraxia]

Wagner bowled in one fewer innings.

lol England

 

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

1980s NZ team
Hadlee : Arguably the best ever
Chatfield : Average of 32
Cairns : Average of 32

2010s NZ team
Boult : Average of 27.5
Southee : Average of 29
Wagner : Average of 27.5

The 2010s NZ team performed more consistently

I've given your post a Love icon because of this: "Hadlee : Arguably the best ever" and also because the wolverine (along with the honey badger) is my favourite mustelid.

However, I think Subby is right here (which is why I have Liked all of his posts, I doubt it will ever happen again). Making an intellectual analogy, sometimes the super brilliant individual is required to crack the really hard stuff (e.g. Einstein and general relativity) and a group made up of many just brilliant individuals will not get the job done.

Anyway, I think I can prove reasonably convincingly why Subby is right. Firstly, it is only fair to compare the 1980s and 2010s NZ teams against the same opposition, and by the same opposition, I mean the same in terms of quality. And that means against the best teams because those results should be weighted far more highly than results against minnows. Also, the 1980s NZ teams played against far fewer minnows (just SL).

The top five teams of the 1980s (apart from NZ) were Australia, England, India, Pakistan and the WI.

For the 2010s teams, it would have been the same but with WI replaced by SA. You could possibly replace Pakistan with SL because while Pakistan has a better win-loss for that decade (33-37 vs. 31-40), SL holds an edge over Pakistan in head-to-head win-loss (7-5). I'll include NZ's results against both of them for completeness.

The Pakistan and SL data for that decade (to confirm my previous figures):







OK, here are the overall results for the 1980s NZ teams:



And here are the opposition team results:



You can see that we held our own against England, India and Pakistan. We lost narrowly to Australia (win-loss = 4-5) but if Morrison had been given that plumb LBW against McDermott in the 1987 Boxing Day test, it would have been 5-5 (not necessarily, of course, as the future would have been changed: there was a drawn test at the WACA in November 1989 in which Hadlee did not play for some reason). We also lost narrowly to the WI 2-3 (admittedly, the 1980 "win" against them was a bit, shall we say, controversial, thanks principally to Freddy G!).

Here are the overall results for the 2010s NZ teams:



And here are the opposition team results:



You can see that we did well against Sri Lanka and Pakistan (the two weakest teams) with win-loss numbers of 7-2 and 5-3 respectively and we held our own against England (3-3). However, we got absolutely hammered against Australia (1-9), India (1-6) and SA (0-5).

Against the top teams (especially the best of the top teams), the 1980s NZ teams were definitely better.

 

[Coronis]

Damn that Windies team was good