How would 80s WI and 2000s Australia fare in unbeatable current India?

[subshakerz]

So you mean the fact that visiting spinners averages 4 runs more in India since the 2015 than the 2000s and will just ignore the batting line-ups fielded by India, then definitely those numbers are numbers!

I've always maintained both, quality of 2000s bats and quality of current pitches.

 

[subshakerz]

Or every Indian pacer was simply thrash. Btw you know this is exactly what we are debating for the current Indian spinners, no?

India had better pacers in the 2000s than the 90s if you ask me. But they had crap to bowl on at home.

And it's different than the spinners since we aren't arguing bowling in India was ever pace friendly to begin with.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I've always maintained both, quality of 2000s bats and quality of current pitches.

But that would suggest a difference of around 10-15 runs in average, at the very least. Sehwag alone could had made a 4 runs difference in the average. Btw I think the pitches are more friendly now than the 2000s, just that the extent is WAYYYYYYY overstated by some, especially you.

 

[capt_Luffy]

India had better pacers in the 2000s than the 90s if you ask me. But they had crap to bowl on at home.

And it's different than the spinners since we aren't arguing bowling in India was ever pace friendly to begin with.

Srinath, Prasad, Dev and Prabhakar were better than Pathan, Agarkar, Nehra and whatever else they had easily. Zaheer was great, but his home record is still thrash.

 

[subshakerz]

But that would suggest a difference of around 10-15 runs in average, at the very least. Sehwag alone could had made a 4 runs difference in the average. Btw I think the pitches are more friendly now than the 2000s, just that the extent is WAYYYYYYY overstated by some, especially you.

I don't think that would be true. For example, Sehwag himself may not be facing the spinners as much as a middle order bat.

Mind you, I was never a fan of using this raw average metric to begin with since there are too many variables. For example, which spinners are used and how frequently, etc. So I don't know what the range would. Perhaps the sample size is larger to make a few average pts more significant. I didn't bring these numbers in the conversation.

As for the 2000s though, there is just too much evidence of that IMO given that I watched that entire decade and the 90s.

 

[Coronis]

Not really, it's just that Indian pacers like Srinath, Kapil and Prasad adapted better to home and it wasn't as easy for foreign pacers. Similar with Vaas in SL.

Ah so when its the spinners its the pitch, but when its pacers its the bowlers.

Good to know.

 

[subshakerz]

But that would suggest a difference of around 10-15 runs in average, at the very least. Sehwag alone could had made a 4 runs difference in the average. Btw I think the pitches are more friendly now than the 2000s, just that the extent is WAYYYYYYY overstated by some, especially you.

I don't think that would be true. For example, Sehwag himself may not be facing the spinners as much as a middle order bat.

Mind you, I was never a fan of using this raw average metric to begin with since there are too many variables. For example, which spinners are used and how frequently, etc. So I don't know what the range would. Perhaps the sample size is larger to make a few average pts more significant. I didn't bring these numbers in the conversation.

As for the 2000s though, there is just too much evidence of that IMO given that I watched that entire decade and the 90s.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't think that would be true. For example, Sehwag himself may not be facing the spinners as much as a middle order bat.

Mind you, I was never a fan of using this raw average metric to begin with since there are too many variables. For example, which spinners are used and how frequently, etc. So I don't know what the range would. Perhaps the sample size is larger to make a few average pts more significant. I didn't bring these numbers in the conversation.

As for the 2000s though, there is just too much evidence of that IMO given that I watched that entire decade and the 90s.

Mind you we are comparing Sehwag, Sachin, Laxman, Dravid and Ganguly mostly in their A game with Pujara, Kohli, Rahane and for half of the duration these 3 were useless against anything. Batting line-up more than makes a 4 runs average difference imho.

 

[subshakerz]

Srinath, Prasad, Dev and Prabhakar were better than Pathan, Agarkar, Nehra and whatever else they had easily. Zaheer was great, but his home record is still thrash.

Dev was at the fag end of his bowling career. Zaheer is a bit of a circular argument, yeah his home record was better but he was a very good bowler and we are arguing that home bowling was tougher then.

 

[subshakerz]

Mind you we are comparing Sehwag, Sachin, Laxman, Dravid and Ganguly mostly in their A game with Pujara, Kohli, Rahane and for half of the duration these 3 were useless against anything. Batting line-up more than makes a 4 runs average difference imho.

I am not disagreeing they are a big factor, I just don't know how many points it counts for in this stat.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Dev was at the fag end of his bowling career. Zaheer is a bit of a circular argument, yeah his home record was better but he was a very good bowler and we are arguing that home bowling was tougher then.

Dev averaged 20 odd. Home bowling was definitely tougher, but Zak's home record is really too poor to justify by just tough conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

Ah so when its the spinners its the pitch, but when its pacers its the bowlers.

Good to know.

Yes objectively Indian pitches aren't pace friendly on the whole and it's not like the home pace bowlers are achieving crazy numbers there like in SA to justify the pitch factor. But I am not claiming that flat pitches didn't affect their figures in the 2000s.

 

[subshakerz]

Dev averaged 20 odd. Home bowling was definitely tougher, but Zak's home record is really too poor to justify by just tough conditions.

I don't think you are arguing Zaheer wasn't very good overall and that pitches affected his home numbers.

 

[Coronis]

Yes objectively Indian pitches aren't pace friendly on the whole and it's not like the home pace bowlers are achieving crazy numbers there like in SA to justify the pitch factor. But I am not claiming that flat pitches didn't affect their figures in the 2000s.

No, you’re claiming that Indian pace bowlers adapted to bowling in Indian conditions, but spinners can’t do that they need a big pitch advantage.

I like to use a bit of a circular argument, yeah his home record was better but he was a very good bowler and we are arguing that home bowling was tougher then.

ftfy

 

[subshakerz]

No, you’re claiming that Indian pace bowlers adapted to bowling in Indian conditions, but spinners can’t do that they need a big pitch advantage.

I'm not claiming that. Indian spinners don't need to adapt per se because conditions naturally suit them.

If conditions don't naturally grant your bowling style an advantage, then you do need to adapt your bowling to get the most out of surfaces which is what Srinath, Kapil and Vaas did.

But generally these pitches naturally favor spinners. They don't need to adapt. And the more spicier recent wickets have given a bigger advantage than normal.

 

[Xix2565]

I'm not claiming that. Indian spinners don't need to adapt per se because conditions naturally suit them.

If conditions don't naturally grant your bowling style an advantage, then you do need to adapt your bowling to get the most out of surfaces which is what Srinath, Kapil and Vaas did.

But generally these pitches naturally favor spinners. They don't need to adapt. And the more spicier recent wickets have given a bigger advantage than normal.

Do conditions not naturally suit certain types of bowlers (fast and spin) everywhere? You really seem to find it difficult to give a reasonable argument when you're reaching like this.

 

[subshakerz]

Do conditions not naturally suit certain types of bowlers (fast and spin) everywhere? You really seem to find it difficult to give a reasonable argument when you're reaching like this.

The problem is your narrative assumes pitch conditions in India remain static and there is nothing juiced up about Ashwin and Jadejas numbers because you don't want to take the sheen off their achievements.

I just find it odd because you are acting like I am the first person in the universe who has suggested conditions in India in the Kohli era have become more spin friendly.

 

[Xix2565]

The problem is your narrative assumes pitch conditions in India remain static and there is nothing juiced up about Ashwin and Jadejas numbers because you don't want to take the sheen off their achievements.

I just find it odd because you are acting like I am the first person in the universe who has suggested conditions in India in the Kohli era have become more spin friendly.

You've yet to prove anything so far though, so I don't see why you should be acknowledged. The argument you give could be used for a lot of great players, but you never try to, which makes it seem more like a personal agenda than anything objective.

You have been shown a general trend that there hasn't been much of a change overall in conditions across certain eras and you want us to act like you're intelligent for focusing on a handful of games? Does sample size not matter here, or are we just deciding how a couple of outliers behaved is now how the pattern was for a longer period of time?

 

[ma1978]

The problem is your narrative assumes pitch conditions in India remain static and there is nothing juiced up about Ashwin and Jadejas numbers because you don't want to take the sheen off their achievements.

I just find it odd because you are acting like I am the first person in the universe who has suggested conditions in India in the Kohli era have become more spin friendly.

you suggest it but you’re wrong and the numbers prove you’re wrong

 

[subshakerz]

You've yet to prove anything so far though, so I don't see why you should be acknowledged.

Nobody is asking you to acknowledge me. In fact, please ignore me and take your attitude to another thread lol.