Bumrah/Cummins/Rabada vs Anderson/Pollock/Walsh

[capt_Luffy]

Lindwall and Davidson were better than him for sure. Have you seen Trueman’s away record? Its actually pretty damn atrocious and propped up by a weak NZ team.

Won't say atrocious, but calling it anything but decent will be a big stretch.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Trueman was the Lillee of his era

 

[capt_Luffy]

Trueman was the Lillee of his era

Lillee was ATG in England, can't say that for Trueman in Australia.

 

[Coronis]

Won't say atrocious, but calling it anything but decent will be a big stretch.

Away average of 29.93 excluding NZ

(they had Sutcliffe in the first series and Reid in both series, and Trueman failed to dismiss either of them ever)

His average flatters him very much so, also with playing 70% of his games at home.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Away average of 29.93 excluding NZ

(they had Sutcliffe in the first series and Reid in both series, and Trueman failed to dismiss either of them ever)

His average flatters him very much so, also with playing 70% of his games at home.

Yeah, I know that. WI was also very flat and had a strong batting. As I said, by normal standards his away record is decent. By ATG it's thrash.

 

[subshakerz]

Lindwall and Davidson were better than him for sure. Have you seen Trueman’s away record? Its actually pretty damn atrocious and propped up by a weak NZ team.

Lindwall maybe. Trueman is like Lillee, exceptional peer rating gets him ATG title but not quite proven away.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Lindwall maybe. Trueman is like Lillee, exceptional peer rating gets him ATG title but not quite proven away.

Trueman didn't had 20% the peer ratings of Lillee back in his time. Bedser and Larwood were almost universally rated higher, and it was Really close between him and Statham. Lillee also did even better in England than at home, Trueman didn't, he was bang average in Australia and West Indies.

 

[Johan]

isn't Trueman's failiure in Windies just his first two tests there where he was like 22?

 

[capt_Luffy]

isn't Trueman's failiure in Windies just his first two tests there where he was like 22?

3 matches with 9 wickets. In his other 5, 21@26.14

 

[Johan]

3 matches with 9 wickets. In his other 5, 21@26.14

Yeah I remember like a decade or so ago making the argument, his record in Windies is ****ed by the tour when he was like 22 and the second test had an historic flat wicket, he took like 3-4 wickets @75 in the first two test, and then like 26 wickets @ 26 in the next 6 matches, I won't take his WI record as a L against him, his failures came as a 22 year old on flat tracks against ATG batting attacks, his record after is actually very impressive considering the batters he was facing on the pitches he was bowling on.

he also completely outbowled everyone in the second tour of Windies iirc, you can check me on this if you want.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah I remember like a decade or so ago making the argument, his record in Windies is ****ed by the tour when he was like 22 and the second test had an historic flat wicket, he took like 3-4 wickets @75 in the first two test, and then like 26 wickets @ 26 in the next 6 matches, I won't take his WI record as a L against him, his failures came as a 22 year old on flat tracks against ATG batting attacks, his record after is actually very impressive considering the batters he was facing on the pitches he was bowling on.

I am aware of the context, but still don't think waving off his first two tests totally is right. And I won't call his record impressive, considering everything definitely good, but given he pretty much is rated higher than the likes of Lindwall and Holding, it's not cutting for me. Same for his Australian record. It's good, but a big let down given his stature.

 

[Johan]

I am aware of the context, but still don't think waving off his first two tests totally is right. And I won't call his record impressive, considering everything definitely good, but given he pretty much is rated higher than the likes of Lindwall and Holding, it's not cutting for me. Same for his Australian record. It's good, but a big let down given his stature.

I understand where you're coming from, just think his away averages are worse than he actually was away from home, specifically the Australian and the Windies ones, just by memory I think he was middling in his first aussie tour but managed to be the best bowler in the tour bar Davidson in the second tour iirc. don't think his away record is as rough as numbers suggest tbh, pretty greatly affected by playing on two flat tracks very early in his career.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah I remember like a decade or so ago making the argument, his record in Windies is ****ed by the tour when he was like 22 and the second test had an historic flat wicket, he took like 3-4 wickets @75 in the first two test, and then like 26 wickets @ 26 in the next 6 matches, I won't take his WI record as a L against him, his failures came as a 22 year old on flat tracks against ATG batting attacks, his record after is actually very impressive considering the batters he was facing on the pitches he was bowling on.

he also completely outbowled everyone in the second tour of Windies iirc, you can check me on this if you want.

Statham was 6 months older and thoroughly outperformed him.

Can I choose to ignore Trueman’s series against India since he was only 21?

Does it also mean I get to ignore Rabada in NZ in 2017 or in India in 2015?

 

[Johan]

Statham was 6 months older and thoroughly outperformed him.

Can I choose to ignore Trueman’s series against India since he was only 21?

Does it also mean I get to ignore Rabada in NZ in 2017 or in India in 2015?

Sure.

tho Rabada averaged 40+ in his next India tour too iirc so it won't change much for him.

Statham was a very good bowler himself and performing in a high scoring series is impressive for his gallery, though I'm pretty sure Trueman outbowled him in the 1960 tour pretty comfortably too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I understand where you're coming from, just think his away averages are worse than he actually was away from home, specifically the Australian and the Windies ones, just by memory I think he was middling in his first aussie tour but managed to be the best bowler in the tour bar Davidson in the second tour iirc. don't think his away record is as rough as numbers suggest tbh, pretty greatly affected by playing on two flat tracks very early in his career.

As I said, his away record isn't bad by any means, but it also really is far from elite, where he belongs. I know it will controversial, but if you swap Anderson and Trueman, I think there careers will hardly change. Though Trueman was significantly better as a youngster.

 

[Johan]

As I said, his away record isn't bad by any means, but it also really is far from elite, where he belongs. I know it will controversial, but if you swap Anderson and Trueman, I think there careers will hardly change. Though Trueman was significantly better as a youngster.

Ooh, very controversial indeed, don't really agree, think Truman was much better than Anderson as a youngster and was far superior at adapting to conditions, really only took 2 tests for Windies.

 

[Johan]

Ooh, very controversial indeed, don't really agree, think Truman was much better than Anderson as a youngster and was far superior at adapting to conditions, really only took 2 tests for Windies.

tho I get your point @capt_Luffy career structures are similar

 

[kyear2]

I have them as:
Currently-
Walsh
Cummins
Pollock
Rabada
Anderson
Bumrah

Where they'll finish (going by quality)
Bumrah
Cummins
Walsh
Rabada
Pollock
Anderson

I would place Pollock above Wash and Rabada, but the rest is fine.

Bumrah easily the best quality wise.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Truemans strike rate is incredible for his era

 

[BazBall21]

Lillee is slightly ahead of Trueman I think