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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Maybe Xis from this century (post 2000 debut) would be closer:

Asia Xi

Sehwag
Rohit
Pujara
Kohli
Sanga
Younis
Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
Asif

Ashes Xi

Khawaja
Cook
Root
Smith
Pietersen
Stokes
Prior
Cummins
Lyon
Hazlewood
Anderson

ROW

Smith
Gayle
Amla
Williamson
ABD
Watling
Holder
Philander
Rabada
Maharaj
Steyn
Good effort. I'd go:

Asia Xi

Sehwag
Karunaratne
Sanga
Kohli
Younis
Pant
Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
Asif



Ashes Xi

Khawaja
Cook
Root
Smith
Clarke
Stokes
Prior
Cummins
Lyon
Hazlewood
Anderson

ROW

Smith
Amla (makeshift opener)
Williamson
R Taylor
ABD
Watling
Oram/CDG/Phillips (depending on conditions)
Philander
Rabada
Maharaj
Steyn

Tough on the WI, but I wouldn't pick anyone from the Windies
 

kyear2

International Coach
Ashes will be quite a lot stronger, especially when going in around a bowler lighter than the other 2 teams like you are doing.

There's give and take in your selections for Asia and ROW. Very little in it head to head, or on overall balance, other than some unanswered questions in Lindsay and Barry.

Fair enough. Not everyone likes picking a WK who mainly played as a bat though. ROW may as well pick AB if going this route and take a bit of a batting advantage.

Yeah, the Ashes squad is stronger in batting, arguable the weakest in bowling.

The Asian team I used was @capt_Luffy effort, I would go Ashwin over Jadeja. Also using Watling and not Lindsay and there are zero questions about Barry's quality.
 

Thala_0710

State 12th Man
Good effort. I'd go:

Asia Xi

Sehwag
Karunaratne
Sanga
Kohli
Younis
Pant
Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah
Asif



Ashes Xi

Khawaja
Cook
Root
Smith
Clarke
Stokes
Prior
Cummins
Lyon
Hazlewood
Anderson

ROW

Smith
Amla (makeshift opener)
Williamson
R Taylor
ABD
Watling
Oram/CDG/Phillips (depending on conditions)
Philander
Rabada
Maharaj
Steyn

Tough on the WI, but I wouldn't pick anyone from the Windies
I like going for Sanga at 3 and Pant as the keeper although I prefer Rohit to karunaratne. For the Ashes Xi it was a toss up b/w KP and Clarke but Clarke's away record isn't too great and hence went with KP. CDG for Holder also I agree, just forgot about CDG tbh. Don't agree with Taylor for Gayle though, don't think Taylor is that much better than him to warrant shifting the batting order and putting Amla as an opener to fit him in.
Anyway, who do you think wins? Imo it is quite close and the result will be conditions dependent. The closest would probably be in AUS where everyone has a chance
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
We still disagree, but ok.

I very much have Barry top 10
And I think, based on Everything we know and you lacking eye Test, that's crazy. If Fredfertang or Peterhrt rates him that high I can understand because eye Test is the main basis behind that rating, but always gets a bit fuzzy with you because you rank him that high just because you aren't satisfied by the rate Hutton and Sunny scored at.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, the Ashes squad is stronger in batting, arguable the weakest in bowling.

The Asian team I used was @capt_Luffy effort, I would go Ashwin over Jadeja. Also using Watling and not Lindsay and there are zero questions about Barry's quality.
With Warne, Lillee, Barnes and McGrath; I disagree. Also re Jadeja and Ashwin, with Murali already offering off breaks, I find another spinner turning the ball in the same direction redundant.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
Yeah, the Ashes squad is stronger in batting, arguable the weakest in bowling.

The Asian team I used was @capt_Luffy effort, I would go Ashwin over Jadeja. Also using Watling and not Lindsay and there are zero questions about Barry's quality.
Even if you are completely convinced of his quality, there are plenty of questions about how good he was in comparison to the other openers. They represent the best and worst of players in these teams. Even if you really rate him, you can't judge him relative to the other openers with any degree of confidence.
 

kyear2

International Coach
And I think, based on Everything we know and you lacking eye Test, that's crazy. If Fredfertang or Peterhrt rates him that high I can understand because eye Test is the main basis behind that rating, but always gets a bit fuzzy with you because you rank him that high just because you aren't satisfied by the rate Hutton and Sunny scored at.
1. There's quite a bit of his batting online, quite a bit.

2. His peer rating is off the charts high, he was the link between Sobers and his name sake as the best batsman in the world and was seen to be in the same class as both.

3. He's a one in a kind, a unicorn, no opener has ever been able to combine technique with such a prolific scoring rate. Probaly only pre- war Hobbs.

4. It's not just @fredfertang and @peterhrt , it's all the guys who've seen him and I have lots of respect for both of those guys, so do you. Pererhrt rates him with only IVA and SRT, from whom he's seen.

5. You've never seen Grace and his competition can only generously be described as questionable and you and others rate him top 3 ever.

6. Yes my issue with Hutton is rate of scoring, but still he's one ahead of Barry for me at 8th. My issues with Sunny is less scoring rate and more his best two years being WSC and the worst WI attack ever, which lead to his record being a bit soft. He also didn't flourish on fast or especially helpful pitches. Again I have Sunny top 12, so not nearly calling him a bum.

Not saying you have to agree, but there's not a lot to doubt about Barry's class.
 

kyear2

International Coach
With Warne, Lillee, Barnes and McGrath; I disagree. Also re Jadeja and Ashwin, with Murali already offering off breaks, I find another spinner turning the ball in the same direction redundant.
Ok, you're using Barnes, I don't.

But let's say

McGrath | Lillee | Davidson | Warne | Hammond

It's world class

But so is

Marshall | Ambrose | Hadlee | Steyn | Sobers

And all of the pacers there are rated ahead of the Ashes 2nd best pacer, and Warne struggled mightily vs quality bats in all conditions.

Then

Bumrah | Imran | Wasim | Muralitharan| Ashwin (Jadeja isn't of the quality as a batsman or bowler to make such a team)

Again, didn't say the Ashes attack was bad, said it w.as arguably the worst of the three, while have the best batting.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Even if you are completely convinced of his quality, there are plenty of questions about how good he was in comparison to the other openers. They represent the best and worst of players in these teams. Even if you really rate him, you can't judge him relative to the other openers with any degree of confidence.
He batted alongside Greenidge for years and was clearly the better of the two.

He took on Lillee like no one besides Viv or Sobers was even capable, and this was Lillee at his absolute peak.

Peter has made several posts that in the 70's no one considered Gavaskar the better batsman. All world teams etc Barry was the consensus choice. Even for WSC Barry was the one approached.

The Cricinfo voters voted the gentleman 2nd team all time ahead of Smith, Greenidge, Sehwag etc etc.

Yes I can rate him with a decent degree of confidence.

He's not West Indian, there's not basis for preference, any who watched what we can find of him and has read about him, or even better, watched him in person would be convinced of his class.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
He batted alongside Greenidge for years and was clearly the better of the two.

He took on Lillee like no one besides Viv or Sobers was even capable, and this was Lillee at his absolute peak.

Peter has made several posts that in the 70's no one considered Gavaskar the better batsman. All world teams etc Barry was the consensus choice. Even for WSC Barry was the one approached.

The Cricinfo voters voted the gentleman 2nd team all time ahead of Smith, Greenidge, Sehwag etc etc.

Yes I can rate him with a decent degree of confidence.

He's not West Indian, there's not basis for preference, any who watched what we can find of him and has read about him, or even better, watched him in person would be convinced of his class.
Ratings pretty much always reward flash at the expense of functionality. Barry is no doubt benefiting from this. In his case, it might be more understandable than most as we are assessing him primarily on 3 day games where fast striking could be very beneficial. But extrapolating this usefulness to 5 day games from an opener is likely to be a mistake, especially for an opener.

Where is your upper limit to accepting the ratings for him? He sounds like a shoo-in for a better career than Lara from how you decribe him. I doubt you rate him that highly?
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
1. There's quite a bit of his batting online, quite a bit.

2. His peer rating is off the charts high, he was the link between Sobers and his name sake as the best batsman in the world and was seen to be in the same class as both.

3. He's a one in a kind, a unicorn, no opener has ever been able to combine technique with such a prolific scoring rate. Probaly only pre- war Hobbs.

4. It's not just @fredfertang and @peterhrt , it's all the guys who've seen him and I have lots of respect for both of those guys, so do you. Pererhrt rates him with only IVA and SRT, from whom he's seen.

5. You've never seen Grace and his competition can only generously be described as questionable and you and others rate him top 3 ever.

6. Yes my issue with Hutton is rate of scoring, but still he's one ahead of Barry for me at 8th. My issues with Sunny is less scoring rate and more his best two years being WSC and the worst WI attack ever, which lead to his record being a bit soft. He also didn't flourish on fast or especially helpful pitches. Again I have Sunny top 12, so not nearly calling him a bum.

Not saying you have to agree, but there's not a lot to doubt about Barry's class.
I think you know full well how different the two's situations are..... As I said, for the following reasons, I rate Barry highly. But can't put him above, say Victor Trumper, who did all of the above and still had a Great Test Career. Hence, around the likes of Miandad, who had a 50+ averaging career close to 2 decades; seems Perfectly fair to me.
 

Coronis

International Coach
He batted alongside Greenidge for years and was clearly the better of the two.

He's not West Indian, there's not basis for preference
He batted in the same competition as Turner for years and was his inferior.

You definitely don’t have to be of the same nationality to give a player preferential treatment.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
He batted in the same competition as Turner for years and was his inferior.

You definitely don’t have to be of the same nationality to give a player preferential treatment.
Is this a comment on batting averages alone, or was Turner actually better? I have no idea.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Is this a comment on batting averages alone, or was Turner actually better? I have no idea.
Batting averages, far better century ratio, far better conversion rate.

iirc Richards’ team had Holding and later in Turner’s career Marshall.

Turner’s team did have Imran, though only til 76 when he wasn’t the bowler he was yet to become.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
Batting averages, far better century ratio, far better conversion rate.

iirc Richards’ team had Holding and later in Turner’s career Marshall.

Turner’s team did have Imran, though only til 76 when he wasn’t the bowler he was yet to become.
Outside of batting average, these stats don't mean much. They should just be reflected in the average. Particularly meaningless in 3 day games. The second innings can be meaningless or a pseudo ODI shoot out. First innings not that far off either under the 100 over rule.

Most of ths world's best bowlers were playing county, and there were a ton of teams. Who you had on your team makes very little difference. Home pitches are going to make a huge difference in comparison, as batting friendliness varied a ton. I have no idea which grounds were good for batting though.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Outside of batting average, these stats don't mean much. They should just be reflected in the average. Particularly meaningless in 3 day games. The second innings can be meaningless or a pseudo ODI shoot out. First innings not that far off either under the 100 over rule.

Most of ths world's best bowlers were playing county, and there were a ton of teams. Who you had on your team makes very little difference. Home pitches are going to make a huge difference in comparison, as batting friendliness varied a ton. I have no idea which grounds were good for batting though.
I only mentioned the bowlers as in extra ones they each had to face compared to the other. I disagree re: tons and conversion rates. Especially with both being openers and Turner being a batsman that was less aggressive than Richards I’d say his much higher rate of tons and conversions is quite an important factor.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Ratings pretty much always reward flash at the expense of functionality. Barry is no doubt benefiting from this. In his case, it might be more understandable than most as we are assessing him primarily on 3 day games where fast striking could be very beneficial. But extrapolating this usefulness to 5 day games from an opener is likely to be a mistake, especially for an opener.

Where is your upper limit to accepting the ratings for him? He sounds like a shoo-in for a better career than Lara from how you decribe him. I doubt you rate him that highly?
I rate him 9th all time as a bat, the back end of the pantheon of the game, just behind Hutton.

Bradman, Tendulkar, Sobers, Richards, Hobbs, Lara, Smith, Hutton

Richards

Gavaskar, Hammond, Chappell, Kallis, Ponting

The rest
 

kyear2

International Coach
Ratings pretty much always reward flash at the expense of functionality. Barry is no doubt benefiting from this. In his case, it might be more understandable than most as we are assessing him primarily on 3 day games where fast striking could be very beneficial. But extrapolating this usefulness to 5 day games from an opener is likely to be a mistake, especially for an opener.

Where is your upper limit to accepting the ratings for him? He sounds like a shoo-in for a better career than Lara from how you decribe him. I doubt you rate him that highly?
It's strange, there's very few batsmen and bolwers who's held that mantle over the history of the game.

Barnes - O'Reilly - Lindwall - Lillee - Marshall - Ambrose - Wasim - McGrath - Steyn - Bumrah

Hobbs - Hammond - Bradman - (50's were a mess two of the 3Ws, Compton / May, Harvey?) - Sobers - Richards - Richards - Tendulkar / Lara - Smith

Yet Richards is the only one who was rewarded for being a flash in the pan? That's wild tbh. And a bit disingenuous tbh.

He earned it just like everyone else.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
It's strange, there's very few batsmen and bolwers who's held that mantle over the history of the game.

Barnes - O'Reilly - Lindwall - Lillee - Marshall - Ambrose - Wasim - McGrath - Steyn - Bumrah

Hobbs - Hammond - Bradman - (50's were a mess two of the 3Ws, Compton / May, Harvey?) - Sobers - Richards - Richards - Tendulkar / Lara - Smith

Yet Richards is the only one who was rewarded for being a flash in the pan? That's wild tbh. And a bit disingenuous tbh.

He earned it just like everyone else.
By playing 4 Test matches and not a single one in Sub continent..... In the 50s you mentioned Compton and May, but not the one who actually was the best of the lot, Hutton. And he often was underrated. Why? Not flashy enough. Among all the batsmen you have named, tell me one who wasn't flashy. You will find the answer. Tell me, without using peer ratings, why Barry should be rated ahead of Vijay Merchant? And with using peer ratings, why ahead of Victor Trumper?
 

Coronis

International Coach
It's strange, there's very few batsmen and bolwers who's held that mantle over the history of the game.

Barnes - O'Reilly - Lindwall - Lillee - Marshall - Ambrose - Wasim - McGrath - Steyn - Bumrah

Hobbs - Hammond - Bradman - (50's were a mess two of the 3Ws, Compton / May, Harvey?) - Sobers - Richards - Richards - Tendulkar / Lara - Smith

Yet Richards is the only one who was rewarded for being a flash in the pan? That's wild tbh. And a bit disingenuous tbh.

He earned it just like everyone else.
All he said was ratings (both by peers and media) tend to reward flash over functionality.

Nobody ever mentioned a “flash in the pan”.

Touchy touchy.

And no he didn’t. The others earned the title of best batsman in the world through their test careers.

Richards was never the best bat in the world anyway.
 

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