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Rank in order as batsmen: Chappell vs Gavaskar vs Richards vs Kallis vs Lara

M

ma1978

International Debutant
I’d probably put the first three in a tier (the arguments here having convinced me that I should underrate Gavaskar just because I dislike him), and the next two in a tier.

statistically Gavaskar is every bit as good as the other two. It’s just style and aesthetics.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Captain
ma1978 said:
I’d probably put the first three in a tier (the arguments here having convinced me that I should underrate Gavaskar just because I dislike him), and the next two in a tier.

statistically Gavaskar is every bit as good as the other two. It’s just style and aesthetics.
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I really don't agree with the rankings, but it makes sense.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
BazBall21 said:
Fair enough. I see one big score every 5.5 innings with very little in between (one score above 20 which was 32) as feast or famine, especially considering the nature of the hundred in Bourda. If you disagree, okay.
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Thats above almost every player’s career average of big scores.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
First the short answer

Richards
Lara

Gavaskar / Chappell
Kallis

I guess I rate Chappell a bit higher than mostly due to his performance in WSC. That was ridiculously impressive, and elevates him above Punter, Kallis etc for me.

Re the feast vs famine argument, yeah when you have a higher proportion of centuries, it tends to offset with some lower scores in between.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
As for Gavaskar, I'll leave this gem from SJS, I'm quoting not only the post, but the post framing it's perspective.

And before it said that I'm not a fan of Sunny, I think he's an abhorrent human being, but definitely a top 4 opener of all time, and tops my 2nd tier of batsmen on the lower end of the top 10. Which is basically the same place he's rated by the community around 9 / 10.

SJS said:
Sure. No problem whatsoever. :) Here it is.

(By the way, I do not think this detracts from his status as a great opening batsman but that post was written to put in perspective the impression carried by the majority that Gavaskar's great record against West Indies and his over all record, particularly away from home, is phenomenal because he faced the mightiest fast bowling during the 70's and 80's. I think and firmly believe that even with our heroes - and Gavaskar the batsman is a big hero of mine- we can and should be objective. The problem is that for most people everything is just black and white and so when I wrote this post below, people assumed I was running down Gavskar and when I wrote an article on his 60th birthday or even the post on this thread about Sobers opinion about him, people think it means I too consider him the greatest batsman since Bradman. Both are factually incorrect assumptions but thats how people want to believe. The grey shades that represent most of what we see around us dont seem to concern most people. :) )


Gavaskar's career is a very interesting one. Before starting one has to state that he is one of the finest opening batsmen of all time but that should not prevent us from looking at his weaknesses. I have been fortunate enough to see him from his University days till the end of his great career. He was a batsman with a fabulous technique, a great idea of where his off stump was and one who could play all the strokes in the game though he gave up the hook very early in his test career.



Having said that, he did show a slightly reduced appetite for runs when faced by the real fast bowlers who also moved the ball. Pure speed did not trouble Gavaskar but movement coupled with sheer speed did find this great batsman at a level below his best - considerably his best I would say.



To analyse his career its not enough to talk of his record against the West Indies. Its much better to talk of his record away from the sub continent where the conditions did not often favour such bowling - speed and sharp movement - though there were the occasional exceptions to this. So lets look at how he fared in Australia, New Zealand, England AND West Indies.



Gavaskar in Australia



Gavaskar played three series in Australia.


    • 1977-78 (5 tests)
    • 1980-81 (3 tests)
    • 1985-86 (3 tests)






He has a great overall record - or so it appears - 920 runs in 11 tests at 51.11 with 5 centuries. Breaking up the series and looking at each bowling attack and Gavaskar's performance against each shows an interesting trend.



In the first series, the Packer series took away almost the entire Australian regular team and the attack Gavaskar faced had only Thomson of any class whatsoever. The bowlers who assisted Thommo with the new ball during this series were :


    • Wayne Clarke - who was making his debut
    • JB Gannon - who was making his debut never to play again
    • IW Callen - who was making his debut never to play again






Gavaskar's 450 runs at 50 each do not appear all that great in the light of this attack. He scored three centuries in the five tests.



In the last series in 1985-86, McDermott (a reasonable bowler) was assisted by :


    • DR Gilbert - who had made his debut earlier that year
    • Bruce Reid - making his debut and
    • Merv Hughes - making his debut !!






Gavaskar broke-in a lot of debutants down under



He averaged 117 plus in the three tests he played in this series.



Thus in these two series with five debutants and another near-debutant, Gavaskar scored 802 runs in 8 tests with five hundreds ! Great.



The series in the middle - 1980-81 - was the only time Gavaskar faced Dennis Lillee in a test match although they both made their debut in the 1970-71 season and Gavaskar outlasted Lillee by three years !



In this series, Lillee was assisted by Lenny Pascoe and Rodney Hogg. Gavaskar scored a fighting 70 in the last innings of this three test series in a partnership of 165 for the first wicket with Chetan Chauhan to set up Australia a mere 142 to win the series 2-0. Kapil rocked Australia with 5 for 28 for India to win the match by an amazing 59 runs and draw the series.



Gavaskar, before that 70, had scores of 0. 10. 23. 5 and 10. He averaged 19.67 for the series.



You cant help but wonder how he would have fared had he faced Lillee more often. Maybe he would have come out on top maybe not ...



Gavaskar in NewZealand



Gavaskar played just two series in NewZealand.


    • 1975-76 - 3 tests - 266 runs at 66.5
    • 1980-81 - 3 tests - 126 runs at 25.2






Not bad you could say. One good series one bad and an overall average of 43.6 . But who was the best NewZealand bowler of the day ? Richard Hadlee - right.



Hadlee missed the first test of the first series. Gavaskar scored 116 and 35 not out. The young Hadlee played the next two games and Gavaskar got 22, 71, and 22.



In the next series, Hadlee , now assisted by Lance Cairns played all the three tests and Gavaskar scored 23, 12, 53, 5 and 33 !



It is strange. 151 for once out in one game and an average of 30 in the next five and Hadlee happens to be a conspicuous difference between the two sets of games.



Gavaskar in West Indies.



Gavaskar played three series in the Carribean.


    • 1970-71 (4 tests) 774 runs at 154 +
    • 1975-76 (4 tests) 390 runs at 55.7
    • 1982-83 (5 tests) 240 runs at 30






The bowling attack of Gavaskar's debut series need not be discussed. Its well known that an ageing Sobers - as a bowler far from his best - was probably the better bowler in the side. But what of the other two series.



In the second series. Andy Roberts was available only for two games, Holding, who bowled pretty well, was making his debut (not again) and Brendon Julien and Wayne Daniell brought up the rear. It was a reasonable attack though not a fearsome one and nowhere near the great West Indian attacks we talk of with awe. Gavaskar did well averaging in the mid fifties. This was not an attack to bother this great batsman.



The third series saw Gavasker faced with the full fury of the Windies pace battery. Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall were available right through the series.



Gavaskar scored a superb 147 not out in the middle of the series - the 3rd test which was drawn without even a single innings of either side being completed. However, on either side of this century Gavaskar had scores of 20, 0, 1, 32, 2, 19, 18, 1. Clearly the fearsome foursome had the measure of our great little master.



Gavaskar in England



Gavaskar toured England five times - more than any other country. Except for 1979, his record was far from great. The 1979 tour saw Gavaskar in great touch and he played probably the finest innings an Indian has played in England ever. He scored 542 runs on this tour at 77.4 with four fifties and a magnificient 221. In the other four series he scored :-


    • 1971 - 3 tests - 144 runs at 24 - 1 fifty
    • 1974 - 3 tests - 217 runs at 36.2 - 1 fifty and 1 hundred
    • 1982 - 3 tests - 74 runs at 24.7 each - no fifty
    • 1986 - 3 tests - 175 runs at 29.2 each - 1 fifty






Not a great record.



The bowlers for these series were mainly
- Snow & Price,

- Old, Arnold & Hendricks,

- Willis & Botham and

- Dilley & Foster (with Pringle for company).






Well Gavaskar had his problems lets say and leave it at that.



---------------- Then in answer to a question asked by a poster I wrote....



Although one doesn't always fall to the bowler who is troubling him which is why we say so-and-so benefitted ecause a great bowler was bowling at the other end, here are the figures you ask for.



1980-81 - Australia
- New ball bowlers - Lillee, Pascoe and Hogg

- Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of his six innings in the series - Lillee (2), Pascoe (3) and Hogg (1)






1975-76 and 1980-81 - NZL
- Of the eight innings in which he face Hadlee he fell to him twice. Falling to Snedden twice, Lance Cairns once and Dayle Hadlee once.


1982-83 - West Indies
- New Ball Bowlers - Holding, Marshall, Garner, Roberts

- Of his 8 didmissals in the series, Gavaskar fell to one or the other of these bowlers in seven innings and to another fast bowler, Winston Davis in the 8th.

- Holding (3), Marshall (2), Garner (2)






I forgot England tours. Here are the four tours where he did not do well.


- Year : 1971

- Main Bowlers : Snow and Price


Gavaskar fell to them four times out of six innings, twice each




- Year : 1974

- Main Bowers : Arnold, Chris Old and Hendrick


Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of the five innings he was dismissed by bowlers. Old (3), Arnold (2)




- Year : 1982

- Main Bowlers : Botham and Willis


Gavaskar fell to them in each of the three innings he played . Willis (2), Botham (1)




- Year : 1986

- Main Bowlers : Dilley, Foster and Pringle*


Gavaskar fell to them five times in six innings the other time being his old 'friend' from England's tour of India, John Lever. Dilley (2), Foster (1), Pringle (2)





*Note: Pringle wasn't a frontline bowler but did very well in this series picking up 13 wickets in just two tests at very little cost.



I find it interesting to see how Gavaskar seemed to have trouble with those who made the ball come in as well as leave him. He was very good at letting the out swing go. We used to marvel at how he would let go deliveries pitching on the stumps and raise his bat and watch the ball pass just outside his off stump. He seemed to be flirting with danger but he knew exactly where his off stump was and where that ball was going. But if he got a bowler who made them come in as well as leave him, he had loads of problems.



Balls coming in and towards his middle and leg stump he had no problem and could keep clipping them off his toes from to mid-wicket to fine leg for days. But let the ball come in from outside the off stump and if it wasn't short enough he would have trouble.



Sometimes because it came in and had him leg before but more often when it didn't and he played at it not knowing it wasn't coming back.



One of the most frustrating things of watching Gavaskar bat was to see him give a master class and then suddenly touch one to the keeper or the slips. This from one who left literally hundreds of deliveries withing millimeters of his off stump.



His whole batting was built around leaving alone good deliveries if he could (or defending them if he couldn't) and punishing every lose delivery. His patience was phenomenal and his vigil (the wait for the loose delivery) never wavered. For someone who did not appear of an aggressive bent at the crease, Gavaskar was one of the most ruthless punishers of the bad delivery. He almost never missed it.



I strongly suspect that bowlers who troubled him with sharp and late inward movement, coupled with one that goes through or moves away off the seam, completely upset his normal game by making him unsure of which ball to leave.



But if he just brought the ball in and not much else, Gavaskar wasn't troubled.



It was fascinating to see how John Lever scythed through the Indian batting in India in 1976-77 , taking 26 wickets at a ridiculous 14.62 runs each with his massive inswing. While Lever was running through the Indian batting he did not get gavaskar too often. Gavaskar was having a modest home series - 394 runs in ten completed innings with one hundred and one fifty and an average approaching 40. However Lever got him only twice while Underwood took him out six times.



Gavaskar did not dominate Lever and was very watchful playing him but he did not get out to the new ball that often getting starts on most occasions with innings of 38 (140 balls), 71 (215), 18 (50), 39 (135), 24 (66), 50 (82), 108 (219), 42(103).



Thats a lot of deliveries. He was also becoming more aggresive towards the end of the series as his strike rate shows
.
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h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
kyear2 said:
As for Gavaskar, I'll leave this gem from SJS, I'm quoting not only the post, but the post framing it's perspective.

And before it said that I'm not a fan of Sunny, I think he's an abhorrent human being, but definitely a top 4 opener of all time, and tops my 2nd tier of batsmen on the lower end of the top 10. Which is basically the same place he's rated by the community around 9 / 10.
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All true, but a microscopic analysis like this (not just going by how a player did in a country, but each series there) leaves a hole in most players' records, with the possible exception of Bradman. It is all about the poster's willingness to go down that route to prove a point.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
How I rate batsmen

1. Production

1a. Who they did it against / quality of bowlers faced

2. Conditions faced

3. Ability to dominate attack / sr / match winning

4. Peak

5. Impactful innings / series

6. Longevity

On that criteria, and any for that matter, and I'm not saying he has to be rated top 5, but can't see a rationale for 15th either.

Isn't know a single person outside of the two on this forum who have ever watched cricket and rate Kallis higher than IVA Richards.

But no need to relitigate.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
kyear2 said:
How I rate batsmen

1. Production

1a. Who they did it against / quality of bowlers faced

2. Conditions faced

3. Ability to dominate attack / sr / match winning

4. Peak

5. Impactful innings / series

6. Longevity

On that criteria, and any for that matter, and I'm not saying he has to be rated top 5, but can't see a rationale for 15th either.

Isn't know a single person outside of the two on this forum who have ever watched cricket and rate Kallis higher than IVA Richards.

But no need to relitigate.
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Ironic, considering he has the lowest production amongst these batsmen, let alone any other top class batsmen.
 
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