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The Great Allrounders in County Cricket

Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Swamp Witch Hattie said:
I never really gave it much thought, I just noticed that Curran's conversion rate from 50 to 100 really dropped off once he was at Northants but your post has got me thinking (and perhaps irresponsibly speculating) a bit more.

In 139 matches at Gloucestershire, he passed 50 a total of 16 + 27 = 43 times and pushed on to 100 16 times giving a conversion rate of 16/43 = 37.2%.

In 139 matches at Northamptonshire, he passed 50 a total of 6 + 48 = 54 times and pushed on to 100 6 times giving a conversion rate of 6/54 = 11.1%.

His conversion rate went down by a factor of 37.2/11.1 = 3.35.

That's a heck of a decline. I'd like to see if that sort of change is typical for other batsmen as they age but I suspect that it wouldn't be. The fact that he was able to pass 50 more times at Northants than at Gloucestershire in the same number of matches tells me that it probably wasn't a hand-eye coordination thing. Your stamina suggestion makes more sense to me.

Curran died in 2012 after collapsing while out jogging. I can't find a definite cause of death but a suspected heart attack was mentioned a few times (even though the man was a fitness fanatic, apparently). Maybe he had an undiagnosed heart condition? Hadlee had something similar (Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome) which he thinks might have started to affect him for the last few years of his test career. At the time, he put his greater difficulties in recovering from a demanding test match down to aging. A year to the day after he played his last day of test cricket, he underwent open heart surgery.

I'm now wondering whether Curran had some sort of problem with his heart which got worse with age (like with Hadlee) and it might have undermined him at Northants when his innings went on for too long and the aerobic demands became greater. Hence his struggles to push on from 50 to 100.

I'd like to see stats pertaining to the conversion rate from 50 to 100 for other batsmen as they age, limiting the data to when their average doesn't change too much (which was the case for Curran).
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Tests that would be easy enough to find seperating by date, the trick would be finding the players who had roughly equal halves of their career.

First class I’d have to manually sort out their yearly stats I think, don’t think I’ll be doing that lol.

One bloke who does come to mind is Joe Root.

First 72 tests (71/72 split doesn’t matter since he didn’t score tons or fifties in those)

6102 @ 51.27 13 tons 41 fifties

last 71 tests

5925 @ 48.96 19 tons 22 fifties

Completely the opposite to Curran in fact.
 
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Migara

Migara

International Coach
reyrey said:
Although not listed I'd guess his economy rate was better here too than tests as he wouldn't need to go searching for wickets as much or go trying to make things happen. Strike rate wise he's probably just slightly higher than Waqar in CC
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More like poor quality of county batsmen. For example Murali in 1999 picked up 66 wickets in 7 matches at 11.8. Just think of what would have happened if he played few more seasons.
 
R

reyrey

U19 Captain
Migara said:
More like poor quality of county batsmen. For example Murali in 1999 picked up 66 wickets in 7 matches at 11.8. Just think of what would have happened if he played few more seasons.
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Unlikely. There were many great bowlers in county cricket at the time including a bunch of West Indians and I don't think any of them had bowling stats like Hadlee.

If Murali played more games/seasons he'd have averaged high teens
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
reyrey said:
Unlikely. There were many great bowlers in county cricket at the time including a bunch of West Indians and I don't think any of them had bowling stats like Hadlee.

If Murali played more games/seasons he'd have averaged high teens
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Joel Garner averaged 16.5 in tests in England. Marshall averaged 18.7 while Hadlee averaged 24 in tests.
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

International Captain
Hadlee was an outlier in county cricket as a bowler, it's very hard to deny that. What's more interesting is why he was such a big outlier. Was it his style of bowling? Was it conditions that he especially found favorable over anything else? Or maybe some of the " go-to easy wicket" balls that he perfected against county level batsmen were frustratingly dug out or miraculously played by a higher standard of test batsmen?

Of note is that he didn't perform nearly as well in Tests in England (still ATG performance level, in case kyear is reading) as he did in CC in presumably simalarish conditions. Could be that England killed the pitches to somewhat nullify the only threat on the New Zealand team. But still, the notion that we can say that one of the very upper echelon greatest bowlers of all time underperformed relative to a typical extrapolation of FC stats really puts into perspective what an absolute monster of a bowler he was in the English CC context.
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

International Captain
peterhrt said:
At the time It was generally thought that Greig over-achieved in Tests. The South Africans reckoned he wouldn't have made their side and Greig agreed. Mushtaq was a contemporary and considered in England to be a better all-round cricketer. He bowled less in Tests than his ability warranted due to the presence of Intikhab.
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Greig is such a strange case. Looking at the CC stats, you're looking at a very serviceable, but not spectacular bowling all-rounder.

His performance in Tests and watching any amount of his play at that level paints a picture of a supremely assured player. He oozed natural talent, with the bat in particular.

My impression is of a man who undeniably was one for a big moment, but conversly simply couldn't get it up for a standard FC match and needed the occasion and pomp of a Test match and high leverage situations within them to perform his best. It's a wholly unprofessional mindset mind you, but you do see it from time to time in across high level athletes. Robert Horry comes to mind, as an analogy for @Coronis and my fellow NBA fans.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
reyrey said:
So you're moving the goalposts now? No one is discussing Tests here.

Post what Garner and Marshall averaged in CC against "poor quality of county batsmen"
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I am making it tougher, basically narrowing the goal post. Garner averaging better in tests than in FC either may be due to not giving 100%, or he had better support bowlers. The same could be applied to Hadlee too. Hadlee rarely let his guard down and this could be a reason, as well as he had better support bowlers than in his NZ team like Clive Rice.
 
R

reyrey

U19 Captain
Migara said:
I am making it tougher, basically narrowing the goal post. Garner averaging better in tests than in FC either may be due to not giving 100%, or he had better support bowlers. The same could be applied to Hadlee too. Hadlee rarely let his guard down and this could be a reason, as well as he had better support bowlers than in his NZ team like Clive Rice.
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Now you're just waffling.

Garner didn't average significantly better in 10 Tests in England (16.5) vs CC in England (18). Hardly worth mentioning.

Now you go agreeing with the same post I agreed with and expanded on about Hadlee having great support bowler in Clive Rice. I thought it was because of "poor quality of county batsmen". Nice back tracking dude.

Take the L or keep on waffling. I'm here all afternoon.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
shortpitched713 said:
Greig is such a strange case. Looking at the CC stats, you're looking at a very serviceable, but not spectacular bowling all-rounder.

His performance in Tests and watching any amount of his play at that level paints a picture of a supremely assured player. He oozed natural talent, with the bat in particular.

My impression is of a man who undeniably was one for a big moment, but conversly simply couldn't get it up for a standard FC match and needed the occasion and pomp of a Test match and high leverage situations within them to perform his best. It's a wholly unprofessional mindset mind you, but you do see it from time to time in across high level athletes. Robert Horry comes to mind, as an analogy for @Coronis and my fellow NBA fans.
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As an NBA fan I have no idea what you mean.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
reyrey said:
Now you're just waffling.

Garner didn't average significantly better in 10 Tests in England (16.5) vs CC in England (18). Hardly worth mentioning.
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Averaging 16.5 vs 18 is exceptionally difficult than averaging 20 vs 21.5. Doing it in tests is even difficult. I am not sure what you are getting at.

Now you go agreeing with the same post I agreed with and expanded on about Hadlee having great support bowler in Clive Rice. I thought it was because of "poor quality of county batsmen". Nice back tracking dude. Take the L or keep on waffling. I'm here all afternoon.
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I have not agreed with any. Just gave another perspective. On the other hand, anyone considering county sides have better batsman than England test side needs a reality check and definite count of the neurons in their brains too.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Migara said:
Averaging 16.5 vs 18 is exceptionally difficult than averaging 20 vs 21.5. Doing it in tests is even difficult. I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have not agreed with any. Just gave another perspective. On the other hand, anyone considering county sides have better batsman than England test side needs a reality check and definite count of the neurons in their brains too.
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Nah man, you’re just randomly bringing up Murali in a thread which had absolutely nothing to do with him. Kudos, once again.
 
R

reyrey

U19 Captain
Migara said:
Averaging 16.5 vs 18 is exceptionally difficult than averaging 20 vs 21.5. Doing it in tests is even difficult. I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have not agreed with any. Just gave another perspective. On the other hand, anyone considering county sides have better batsman than England test side needs a reality check and definite count of the neurons in their brains too.
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Here is what I'm getting at. Hadlee averaged 14.5 in CC over a lot of games and no other bowler from that era which included a lot of greats came close to it.

If Hadlees CC average is because of the "poor quality of county batsmen" explain why no other bowler in that era in CC manged to get close to it?

I await your waffling..

Also FYI you were giving someone elses perspective regarding Clive Rice and Hadlee. Something which I had already quoted and expanded on which you then replied to, but you do so like to waffle..
 
trundler

trundler

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This conclusively dispels the notion that Procter was the Legendary Super Saiyan of all rounders.
 
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