Hadlee Vs Viv Richards

[Swamp Witch Hattie]

Folks are overrating Hadlee the bowler. He pretty much was, like Ambrose, pillaging mostly in home and Aus/Eng.

SL is irrelevant. Only a single good series in the SC outside that and WI, the ultimate test, was below his standards.

Not saying that he wasn't an allround bowler but some obvious flaws here.

I don't think that Hadlee's performance against Sri Lanka should be completely dismissed simply because SL were minnows because the bottom line is, Hadlee bowled brilliantly against them. He swung the ball in the humid SL atmosphere and he bowled with great control. Against better teams, he might not have taken 23 wickets at 10 in three tests like he did against SL in 1984 but I'm confident that he would have done well because as explained, his bowling there was of a very high calibre. SL were actually coached by Sir Garry Sobers at the time and he was very impressed by Hadlee. This is what he said about Hadlee in his autobiography (I have posted the same page in two separate images and you can choose whichever image is easier to read):

 

[subshakerz]

By opposition I would definitely call it good. Not calling it good atleast is the epitome of challenging standards.

Yeah but it doesn't work that way with ATG conversations. We expect ATGs to maintain minimum top standards especially against the best side they face.

We wouldn't give Tendulkar or Lara a pass if they averaged late 30s in a series against ATG Australia.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think that Hadlee's performance against Sri Lanka should be completely dismissed simply because SL were minnows because the bottom line is, Hadlee bowled brilliantly against them. He swung the ball in the humid SL atmosphere and he bowled with great control. Against better teams, he might not have taken 23 wickets at 10 in three tests like he did against SL in 1984 but I'm confident that he would have done well because as explained, his bowling there was of a very high calibre. SL were actually coached by Sir Garry Sobers at the time and he was very impressed by Hadlee. This is what he said about Hadlee in his autobiography (I have posted the same page in two separate images and you can choose whichever image is easier to read):

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Thanks for sharing.

We just view minnows differently. I don't mind minnow stats being included in overall numbers but to me they can distort a players record and I don't think they are a fair examination of how Hadlee does in the SC.

And to be clear, I am somewhat confident that over time he would have great series in Pak and WI if given more of a chance, similar to Lillee. But he didn't get that opportunity and therefore I would opt for more proven cricketers.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah but it doesn't work that way with ATG conversations. We expect ATGs to maintain minimum top standards especially against the best side they face.

We wouldn't give Tendulkar or Lara a pass if they averaged late 30s in a series against ATG Australia.

27 with ball at 4WPM isn't the same as averaging below 40. 28 bowling= 40 batting for me, so definitely did reasonably
Well.

Thanks for sharing.

We just view minnows differently. I don't mind minnow stats being included in overall numbers but to me they can distort a players record and I don't think they are a fair examination of how Hadlee does in the SC.

And to be clear, I am somewhat confident that over time he would have great series in Pak and WI if given more of a chance, similar to Lillee. But he didn't get that opportunity and therefore I would opt for more proven cricketers.

I don't know really. For once, I still think Bumrah was at his best in WI 2019.

 

[Bolo.]

My point is to acknowledge the relative lack of representative sample outside SENA as a legitimate blemish for Hadlee.

Let's exclude Imran for a second and look at non-SC bowlers, excluding minnows:

Marshall: Three tours of England, two tours of Aus, three tours of Pak, two tours of India

McGrath: Three tours of England, three tours of WI, three tours of SA, three tours of India, three tours of Pak/UAE, one tour of SL

Steyn: Two tours of England, three tours of Aus, three tours of Ind, three tours of Pak/UAE, two tours of SL

Hadlee: Five tours of England, four tours of Australia, two tours of India, one tour of Pak, one tour of WI

So as mentioned, Hadlee is imbalanced in his record and only has one quality tour outside of SENA worth talking about.


Bottom line is that the 84 WI series was below worldclass standards, not really by average but by wicket-taking penetration. And they were the strongest side he faced so at best he can claim to be unproven there, unlike say McGrath or Steyn in India. Again, just a minor blemish but we have to acknowledge it.

As I said, more would be better. Given that he has the same record in ROW, it's not that big a deal to me.

Not that I think records in single countries (especially over small samples) is of much importance, but I did acknowledge the blemish by calling it merely very good. You are overemphasising the lack of penetration though. A SR of 57 would not be notable for any bowlers in history besides Steyn and Marshall, and he's at just about 4wpm in a series that WI were only bowled out twice in (which sounds a bit like I'm contradicting myself, but speaks more to the pitches and the strength and weakness of the two batting lineups).

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

27 with ball at 4WPM isn't the same as averaging below 40. 28 bowling= 40 batting for me, so definitely did reasonably
Well.

I don't know really. For once, I still think Bumrah was at his best in WI 2019.

For me one of Bumrah’s best spells was in IPL 2022 vs KKR. I haven’t seen anyone trouble batters with sudden pace and bounce that much ever in a T20 game. He was beyond unplayable

 

[subshakerz]

Not that I think records in single countries (especially over small samples) is of much importance, but I did acknowledge the blemish by calling it merely very good.

Ok we just disagree on severity then.

You are overemphasising the lack of penetration though. A SR of 57 would not be notable for any bowlers in history besides Steyn and Marshall, and he's at just about 4wpm in a series that WI were only bowled out twice in (which sounds a bit like I'm contradicting myself, but speaks more to the pitches and the strength and weakness of the two batting lineups).

I mean, Marshall took 27 wickets that series, not sure how batting friendly it was. But to say clearly, I am not saying he failed in WI since it's a small sample anyways, I am merely saying that what he did is not enough for me to establish himself as a success there by his usual standards. You disagree and think it is fine by ATG standards, ok.

 

[subshakerz]

27 with ball at 4WPM isn't the same as averaging below 40. 28 bowling= 40 batting for me, so definitely did reasonably
Well.

Yeah so I don't think a direct average conversion works without taking into account wicket tally. He was below 4WPM anyways so it's more of a late 30s performance.

I don't know really. For once, I still think Bumrah was at his best in WI 2019.

Sure he was awesome but I do have my doubts if he would be knocking out poles like that for Aus lineups. Kinda like how awesome I saw Wasim against NZ 90s lineups, but never quite seemed that deadly against others.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah so I don't think a direct average conversion works without taking account wicket tally.


Sure he was awesome but I do have my doubts if he would be knocking out poles like that for Aus lineups. Kinda like how awesome I saw Wasim against NZ 90s lineups, but never quite seemed that deadly against others.

Again, 15 wickets at 4 matches is a pretty solid WPM.
Even if he didn't to the same extent, I am sure Bumrah would had done even better.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, 15 wickets at 4 matches is a pretty solid WPM.

Let's put it this way. Was his series performance against WI in 84 so impressive that it lays to doubt any concerns for needing a bigger sample in WI, the best side in the world at the time? Not for me, maybe for you. To me, it was a middling performance.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Let's put it this way. Was his series performance against WI in 84 so impressive that it lays to doubt any concerns for needing a bigger sample in WI, the best side in the world at the time? Not for me, maybe for you. To me, it was a middling performance.

In that regard you can't have a single series like that anywhere against anyone. And again, a 27 bowling average and around 4 WPM being 'middling' is pushing to too far.

 

[subshakerz]

In that regard you can't have a single series like that anywhere against anyone. And again, a 27 bowling average and around 4 WPM being 'middling' is pushing to too far.

Sure you can. Lara in SL 2001 is one.

But outside that level, yeah I have concerns over sample size since this one series didn't really show he can achieve top standards against the best of the best. Even anecdotes confirm that idea.

In his autobiography All Round View Imran Khan said “I also was told by the West Indians that when Hadlee toured the Caribbean, he was not the same attacking bowler they feared from county cricket”.

 

[Bolo.]

Ok we just disagree on severity then.


I mean, Marshall took 27 wickets that series, not sure how batting friendly it was. But to say clearly, I am not saying he failed in WI since it's a small sample anyways, I am merely saying that what he did is not enough for me to establish himself as a success there by his usual standards. You disagree and think it is fine by ATG standards, ok.

Even if I agreed with your assessment of severity and your idea that record in countries is important, I would point to the fact that Hadlee went low 20s or better with a ton of wickets in every country besides WI and Pak. Everyone has a gaps in their record. Nobody else is so faultless across countriesq. It's not his performances in WI that stick him in the top tier-its all the others.

IDK the specifics of the pitches in that series TBF. Just that a couple of the grounds were typically slow. By their own standards, Marshall was great and Hadlee poor. This isn't in dispute. But Marshall was playing home and against a significantly weaker batting lineup. IDK if Marshall taking a bunch in a series Garner and Holding got very few is as indicative of pitches as a couple of draws were.

 

[subshakerz]

Even if I agreed with your assessment of severity and your idea that record in countries is important, I would point to the fact that Hadlee went low 20s or better with a ton of wickets in every country besides WI and Pak. Everyone has a gaps in their record. Nobody else is so faultless across countriesq. It's not his performances in WI that stick him in the top tier-its all the others.

I think we may disagree on the importance for him to establish himself in the WI and Pak. I think the concern is heightened given unusually large percentage of tests in NZ, Aus and Eng.

IDK the specifics of the pitches in that series TBF. Just that a couple of the grounds were typically slow. By their own standards, Marshall was great and Hadlee poor. This isn't in dispute. But Marshall was playing home and against a significantly weaker batting lineup. IDK if Marshall taking a bunch in a series Garner and Holding got very few is as indicative of pitches as a couple of draws were.

You can see the quote above where Hadlee's less than stellar performance left an impression on WI.

 

[Bolo.]

I think we may disagree on the importance for him to establish himself in the WI and Pak. I think the concern is heightened given unusually large percentage of tests in NZ, Aus and Eng.


You can see the quote above where Hadlee's less than stellar performance left an impression on WI.

I can't think of a player whose 2nd worst country was better than Hadlee. Or a player who was as constitently outstanding across the others. If you are poking holes in Hadlee's record in this way, you are poking bigger holes in everyone else's bar Marshall.

We've agreed that he was below his best in WI. There's no need to prove it.

 

[subshakerz]

I can't think of a player whose 2nd worst country was better than Hadlee.

Viv.

 

[Bolo.]

Viv.

I meant bowlers. Bats are hard to compare. He'd have a debatable case on the quoted. Less so on the following sentence, I think.

 

[subshakerz]

I meant bowlers. Bats are hard to compare. He'd have a debatable case on the quoted. Less so on the following sentence, I think.

Viv does well for me on those counts.

My issue with Hadlee wasn't random countries though. It was specific to him proving himself in those countries given he was already loaded in SENA. Like if he had his WI record in Eng, it wouldn't be a big deal at all.

 

[subshakerz]

It's a strech to call his 74 series "Great". It was good, no doubt, but basically consisted of one daddy not out ton.

Goodish great.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Goodish great.

Nope. It was mostly just good