Hadlee Vs Viv Richards

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Again, this is just overrating batters vs bowlers in Tests, let alone bowling ARs.

So? Not everyone had a good bowling lineup to take full advantage. There's a reason why WI dominated, they had no peers as far as their bowlers were concerned for large parts of their careers.

I’m just saying he had a brilliant home record

 

[capt_Luffy]

WSC at the time was much better than the standard of cricket outside. The best players were playing in that. Also Viv averaged 43 and 45+ a lot of Marshall, Garner at al in County Cricket

Not Garner. Garner was his County team mate. He actually might had a problem against Garner, who took his wicket 5 times at home domestic circuit.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Not Garner. Garner was his County team mate. He actually might had a problem against Garner, who took his wicket 5 times at home domestic circuit.

Yeah my mistake.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not ATG, but a brilliant record. As far I’ve read the pitches were pretty fast. And on some of those spin friendly wickets Viv dominated the Indian quartet and Qadir

Agreed. But that's the reason I can't say they were very pace centric or none were flat. I mean, according to some WI posters, all Sunny did in WI was on pancakes.

 

[Xix2565]

I’m just saying he had a brilliant home record

Against weaker attacks than his own side. Some other players had better records than him in the WI against the WI. Was it really as brilliant as people believe?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Against weaker attacks than his own side. Some other players had better records than him in the WI against the WI. Was it really as brilliant as people believe?

Yes it was. Especially given his rate(also has gems like 61 from 36 that won WI a match be India). Obviously for example Amaranth would be rated higher in the WI easily. But Viv was no slouch at home. He had an ATG series vs the Indian spin quartet in 1975 on pitches where Bedi and Chandra picked a lot of wickets. Against a rampaging Imran in 1988, he dominated. Also had a brilliant series vs Hadlee where he averaged 63. Also a brilliant series vs peak Botham and Willis in 1981.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, I don't think Viv was hugely more consistent than Lara. It's a valid critic. And doesn't Haynes have a better average at home than Viv? Home runs are also important, you know. And again, it's also true that him not playing easy bowling is highly exaggerated. Maybe not early on, or in his peak; but he surely did.

Yes Viv was inconsistent compared to other top tiers but balanced by far greater peak efforts.

My point on his inconsistency is to counter this idea that after his peak he was basically just in decline.

 

[subshakerz]

Against weaker attacks than his own side. Some other players had better records than him in the WI against the WI. Was it really as brilliant as people believe?

They weren't weak attacks though, even if they weren't comparable to the greatest attack in history.

 

[subshakerz]

If we're counting WSC, what about the large sample of FC matches that Viv played against the WI ATG bowlers where he averaged <40

Because they are entirely different formats.

 

[Xix2565]

Yes it was. Especially given his rate(also has gems like 61 from 36 that won WI a match be India). Obviously for example Amaranth would be rated higher in the WI easily. But Viv was no slouch at home. He had an ATG series vs the Indian spin quartet in 1975 on pitches where Bedi and Chandra picked a lot of wickets. Against a rampaging Imran in 1988, he dominated. Also had a brilliant series vs Hadlee where he averaged 63. Also a brilliant series vs peak Botham and Willis in 1981.

So like 4 series is enough to average under 50 at home?

 

[Xix2565]

They weren't weak attacks though, even if they weren't comparable to the greatest attack in history.

Unproven, especially considering the level of bowling attacks across history.

 

[subshakerz]

So like 4 series is enough to average under 50 at home?

Yes. I am not sure why averaging 49 somewhere is a weakness. This is just nitpicking and you don't seem to be doing it with Hadlee.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

So like 4 series is enough to average under 50 at home?

I am giving an example only. And these were only examples of series against great bowlers. And you are forgetting Viv played 2/3rd of his matches away from home. And he averages 49.78 so very nearly a 50 average, plus a great SR. You say under 50 as if averaged 45 or below.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Yes. I am not sure why averaging 49 somewhere is a weakness. This is just nitpicking and you don't seem to be doing it with Hadlee.

Even that rounds off to 50. It’s above 49.75.

 

[subshakerz]

Unproven, especially considering the level of bowling attacks across history.

The WI quartet is easily the greatest in history

 

[Xix2565]

Yes. I am not sure why averaging 49 somewhere is a weakness. This is just nitpicking and you don't seem to be doing it with Hadlee.

It's worse than some of his peers who played better attacks and isn't quite on the same level of home dominance as other great batters. Hadlee on the other hand doesn't have such weaknesses as a bowler at home.

I am giving an example only. And these were only examples of series against great bowlers. And you are forgetting Viv played 2/3rd of his matches away from home. And he averages 49.78 so very nearly a 50 average, plus a great SR. You say under 50 as if averaged 45 or below.

I find it questionable at all that this is enough to be comparable to Hadlee's bowling records at home and away. Let alone considered as enough evidence to compare great batters to great bowlers.

 

[Xix2565]

The WI quartet is easily the greatest in history

I was referring to the attacks Viv faced, not played with.

 

[subshakerz]

It's worse than some of his peers who played better attacks and isn't quite on the same level of home dominance as other great batters. Hadlee on the other hand doesn't have such weaknesses as a bowler at home.

Hadlee had it far easier at home. Hadlee's problem is how little he did outside Aus, NZ and Eng.

Like you are making a big deal of Viv not facing his own attack yet have nothing to say for a below par series by Hadlee in WI which should be seen as an actual blemish.

 

[subshakerz]

I was referring to the attacks Viv faced, not played with.

They were mixed just like any other batsman. Who does this level of nitpicking?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

It's worse than some of his peers who played better attacks and isn't quite on the same level of home dominance as other great batters. Hadlee on the other hand doesn't have such weaknesses as a bowler at home.


I find it questionable at all that this is enough to be comparable to Hadlee's bowling records at home and away. Let alone considered as enough evidence to compare great batters to great bowlers.

Question, do you believe it is wrong to suggest Viv and Hadlee are equally good in primary disciplines?