The greatest non-allrounder at their non-specialist discipline

[capt_Luffy]

Knott was a proper keeper, no question. And he was a good enough batsman to make two hundreds against mid-1970s Australia and another against the great WI attack in 1976. But he wasn't in the side just for his batting and despite his keeping, unlike, say, Parks in a previous generation. The feeling at the time was that Taylor was an even better keeper, but I don't know how clear-cut that was. Sometimes there's an assumption that a better batsman must be a slightly inferior keeper, even if that isn't actually the case.

But I think it'll be tricky to make a call for keepers. Where does Gilchrist fit here? And where do you draw the line in terms of their abilities as a keeper?

On Taylor and Knott, I have read the puritans didn't liked Knott that much as he used to stand back to the medium pacers, unlike Godfrey Evans or Bob Taylor. Taylor is regarded highly as the best overall keeper in English FC games (as Evans seldom put as much effort as Test), but it's really tough to say how better (if at all) he was to Knott.

 

[wpdavid]

Someone like Paul Reiffel or James Pattinson. Both averaged about 26 with the bat but weren't allrounders.

Reiffel was a pain in the neck at Old Trafford in 1997, especially bearing in mind that Aus were trailing 1-0 going into that match. Waugh's first innings hundred wouldn't have happened without Reiffel keeping him company long enough to set up what turned out to be a series levelling score.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Greg Chappell

 

[wpdavid]

Greg Chappell

I think he was regarded as an all-rounder in his younger days. In this match he bowled first change, for example.

ENG vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Manchester, June 08 - 13, 1972

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, ENG vs AUS, Australia tour of England and Scotland 1972 at Old Trafford, Manchester dated June 08 - 13, 1972.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[Qlder]

I think he was regarded as an all-rounder in his younger days. In this match he bowled first change, for example.

ENG vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Manchester, June 08 - 13, 1972

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, ENG vs AUS, Australia tour of England and Scotland 1972 at Old Trafford, Manchester dated June 08 - 13, 1972.

www.espncricinfo.com

Not really. Only 3 main bowlers selected and Chappell just happened to bowl better than all the other part-timers. Inverarity at 7 taking up the 4th bowler spot with Marsh at 8 is just so wrong. He only bowled 9 overs in the match

 

[wpdavid]

Not really. Only 3 main bowlers selected and Chappell just happened to bowl better than all the other part-timers. Inverarity at 7 taking up the 4th bowler spot with Marsh at 8 is just so wrong.

Fair enough. That was the test when Massie was unavailable due to injury, and I have no idea who else Australia had in their squad.
Good job from an English pov.


EDIT
Looking at Chappell's career up to that point (the start of the 1972 Ashes), there's a case to be made for him being in the top 5 all-rounders playing test cricket at that time. Obviously Sobers was still number 1, and Intikhab was probably number 2. Illingworth would have maybe been number 3. Beyond them, Greig was on debut, SA were in isolation and Imran was still a kid. Maybe D'oliveira, but he was 40+ by then. Arguably, Chappell's stints as 3rd choice seamer in the 1970/71 Ashes put him ahead of anyone else. Not a golden era for all-rounders, admittedly, and I do take your point.

 

[Migara]

But I think it'll be tricky to make a call for keepers. Where does Gilchrist fit here? And where do you draw the line in terms of their abilities as a keeper?

Gilchrist, Sangakkara and QdK would get in to their side with either for batting or keeping alone, and may be in multiple sides in their era. I want to include Flower and AbdV here as well, but the opinion on them are divided.

 

[ataraxia]

Ashley Giles was often picked ahead of better spinners because he could bat. Averaged almost 21 in Tests and played some important knocks.

No actually this has never happened in test history.

 

[Brook's side]

as if there were better spinners than ashley giles anyway. crazy.

 

[Northerner]

On Taylor and Knott, I have read the puritans didn't liked Knott that much as he used to stand back to the medium pacers, unlike Godfrey Evans or Bob Taylor. Taylor is regarded highly as the best overall keeper in English FC games (as Evans seldom put as much effort as Test), but it's really tough to say how better (if at all) he was to Knott.

Saw Taylor and Knott many times, Taylor for me was better behind the stumps, Knotty a better batter.

 

[Brook's side]

Saw Taylor and Knott many times, Taylor for me was better behind the stumps, Knotty a better batter.

Do you think Taylor is likely the best ever in terms of out-and-out keeping to play test cricket?

 

[Brook's side]

I'd actually love to poach Hammond for this side. He was pretty quick apparently.

Woakes
Wasim
Healy
Cummins
Vaas
Marshall
Walcott (wk)*
Root*/Border*/Tendulkar*
Collingwood (wk)*
Cronje*
Walters/Hammond*

 

[capt_Luffy]

I'd actually love to poach Hammond for this side. He was pretty quick apparently.

Woakes
Wasim
Healy
Cummins
Vaas
Marshall
Walcott (wk)*
Root*/Border*/Tendulkar*
Collingwood (wk)*
Cronje*
Walters/Hammond*

Healy feels wrong smh. It just opens the door to a wide array of keepers having a claim. Not to mention, Healy with a 27 average was a pretty good bat for a keeper at the time and a better bat than Hadlee and Ashwin, around equal to Benaud.

 

[Brook's side]

Healy feels wrong smh. It just opens the door to a wide array of keepers having a claim. Not to mention, Healy with a 27 average was a pretty good bat for a keeper at the time and a better bat than Hadlee and Ashwin, around equal to Benaud.

I'd say:
-he played as night watchman
-other than that his average positions was below 7 (c7.25)
-he didn't push a specialist out of the side
-he was from the era where keepers were specialists, and he didn't stand out as an exception to that rule
-he always played as a keeper

to me batsman keepers, are those who....?.....to me Healy's a specialist keeper.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I'd say:
-he played as night watchman
-other than that his average positions was below 7 (c7.25)
-he didn't push a specialist out of the side
-he was from the era where keepers were specialists, and he didn't stand out as an exception to that rule
-he always played as a keeper

to me batsman keepers, are those who....?.....to me Healy's a specialist keeper.

Oh, Healy's a specialist keeper no doubt there. I was just saying he was a better bat than many bowling allrounders like Ashwin, Davidson, Hadlee, etc. If are you are wanting keepers who aren't good bats, someone like Tallon or Blackham fits the bill better.

 

[Brook's side]

Oh, Healy's a specialist keeper no doubt there. I was just saying he was a better bat than many bowling allrounders like Ashwin, Davidson, Hadlee, etc. If are you are wanting keepers who aren't good bats, someone like Tallon or Blackham fits the bill better.

No I don't want keepers who aren't good bats. I want non batsmen and non all rounders who are good bats.
I'm crying out for them.

 

[Brook's side]

By specialist keeper by the way, I mean more by that than simply being good enough as a keeper to be regarded as a specialist.
I mean in fact, someone who was regarded as being effectively solely a keeper, albeit one who could bat somewhat.
Unlike for example Hadlee, who whilst of course was a specialist bowler - by my reckoning in the top 2 of all time - was regarded also as an all-rounder.
Maybe it used to be easier to be a bowling all rounder than a keeping allrounder, but I don't see that as my problem.
Also, higher average maybe but Healy didn't have the shots that Paddles did, even if from memory he stepped away a bit sometimes.

 

[Line and Length]

Bill Edrich was a fairly useful bowler.

 

[Northerner]

Do you think Taylor is likely the best ever in terms of out-and-out keeping to play test cricket?

As a wicket keeper i have never seen anyone better behind the stumps and i have seen so many over the decades. he even stood right up to Danish fast bowler Ole Mortensen. that took some balls to do,

 

[mr_mister]

Shane Warne for me was viewed as a pretty important part of our batting unit relative to his woeful average. Could never imagine the bat and ball next to his name on the team sheet, nobody would call him an allrounder, but he was also nailed on at 8.

Most of his test 50s were actually pretty crucial and/or memorable knocks. There was also the counter attacking 47 in a total of 118 in the '97 ashes. His technique always looked "good enough" and he did spend a lot of time batting with some of our elite top 7 bats. There just must have been absolute gunk in between the good knocks to explain away the average of 17. As well as a clear attention span issue, the shot he played on 99 beggars belief.