Ricky Ponting vs Dennis Lillee

[PlayerComparisons]

Lol. Two cricketers I don't rate nearly as highly as most others does, especially outside of CW.

I think you probably underrate Ponting a bit. He was better than Dravid IMO although they’re definitely around the same level.

 

[Coronis]

I know you live to be snippy. But I've found that either defer to others way too much or tend to over bowl themselves.

I've heard it from commentators as well, but again apologies for having an opinion.

Actually I was going for the crude innuendo rather than an actual comment on the merits of bowling captains.

 

[subshakerz]

1. Don't watch limited over cricket

Respect.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Ponting - 2nd tier ATG below Lara, Sachin, Gavaskar, Viv.. Etc

Lillee - 1st Tier ATG along with Akram, Hadlee, Steyn, Murali.. Etc

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Cummins is a good captain to me. Not great, but good. Then Imran of course.

Benaud

 

[GIMH]

Hoggard

 

[Arachnodouche]

Cummins is a good captain to me. Not great, but good. Then Imran of course.

How was Imran tactics-wise? Never hear anything on that front.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How was Imran tactics-wise? Never hear anything on that front.

Wasn't the prime tactician as far as I have heard, Miandad was.

 

[kyear2]

How was Imran tactics-wise? Never hear anything on that front.

I don't recall, but have read on here and different articles that Javed was better and relied upon for that side of it.

 

[kyear2]

To be honest, I don't know what makes a great captain, so try not to factor it into these discussions.

I remember creating a thread asking about Graeme Smith's bona fides in this regard. Is it a combination of record, tactical skills and man management?

Record has more to do with the skill

Tactical skills are subjective and can be a little luck based on if it works out

Man management I'm guessing is worth less the higher up in quality one goes?

Does one need to be great at all 3 three or any two of the above?

 

[number11]

I would take Lillee in an XI if I could choose only one of these.

 

[capt_Luffy]

To be honest, I don't know what makes a great captain, so try not to factor it into these discussions.

I remember creating a thread asking about Graeme Smith's bona fides in this regard. Is it a combination of record, tactical skills and man management?

Record has more to do with the skill

Tactical skills are subjective and can be a little luck based on if it works out

Man management I'm guessing is worth less the higher up in quality one goes?

Does one need to be great at all 3 three or any two of the above?

The higher up you go man management becomes more important imo..... Managing 7 super stars who all want spotlight or 2 players with personal beef is very important and can make or break a team.

 

[Coronis]

The higher up you go man management becomes more important imo..... Managing 7 super stars who all want spotlight or 2 players with personal beef is very important and can make or break a team.

Benaud in his video says Worrell was the best he ever saw at managing players. Which is why he made him manager though not being able to make the XI.

For Bradman for example I’d say he was a good/great tactician but a poor manager of players. see: Fingleton, O’Reilly, Miller

 

[kyear2]

The higher up you go man management becomes more important imo..... Managing 7 super stars who all want spotlight or 2 players with personal beef is very important and can make or break a team.

I was thinking in lower levels of the game it's more important, when you get to test cricket you should be motivated?

Plus I imagine some of that is down to the team management as well.

Border though is one guy I think of when I do hear about tough leadership and pulling a team up from the depths, and guess Lloyd and Imran could fall under that as well.

 

[Coronis]

I was thinking in lower levels of the game it's more important, when you get to test cricket you should be motivated?

Plus I imagine some of that is down to the team management as well.

Border though is one guy I think of when I do hear about tough leadership and pulling a team up from the depths, and guess Lloyd and Imran could fall under that as well.

I mean you gotta be able to manage those egos properly. See that famous Sydney Barnes story:

“Barnes was a man of character. At Sydney on the 1911-12 tour, J.W.H.T. Douglas opened the England attack using the new ball with Frank Foster. Barnes was furious. He sulked as he sent down 35 overs for three wickets and 107 runs (in the match he took only four for 179). England lost by 146 runs.

At Melbourne, Australia batted first and Barnes this time had the new ball. We all know with what results. Australia suffered defeat -- and also in the ensuing three games.”

His figures for those games - 8/140, 8/176, 7/121, 7/162 (new ball in all innings)

 

[capt_Luffy]

I was thinking in lower levels of the game it's more important, when you get to test cricket you should be motivated?

Plus I imagine some of that is down to the team management as well.

Border though is one guy I think of when I do hear about tough leadership and pulling a team up from the depths, and guess Lloyd and Imran could fall under that as well.

In addition to what Coronis added, there are also those captains who could motivate frankly mediocre sides to momentary greatness, and more importantly those who could instill a winning mentality in a side. See, Arjuna Ranatunga for the former and Frank Worrell and M A K Pataudi the latter; they made their teams believe that they too can win. My favourite captaincy story is from the 1950 Football WC Final, in which the Uruguayan football board asked their national team to not loose by more than 5 goals. Obdulio Varela, the Uruguayan captain; totally cashed it and motivated his players who had previously already lost morally to give 200% at the field. They ended up with Maracanazo, the second greatest WC Final upset of all time.

 

[kyear2]

I mean you gotta be able to manage those egos properly. See that famous Sydney Barnes story:

“Barnes was a man of character. At Sydney on the 1911-12 tour, J.W.H.T. Douglas opened the England attack using the new ball with Frank Foster. Barnes was furious. He sulked as he sent down 35 overs for three wickets and 107 runs (in the match he took only four for 179). England lost by 146 runs.

At Melbourne, Australia batted first and Barnes this time had the new ball. We all know with what results. Australia suffered defeat -- and also in the ensuing three games.”

His figures for those games - 8/140, 8/176, 7/121, 7/162 (new ball in all innings)

To play devils advocate though, that's not managing egos, that's caving and giving the dude what he wants, and pretty much common sense.

 

[Coronis]

To play devils advocate though, that's not managing egos, that's caving and giving the dude what he wants, and pretty much common sense.

In that specific case well yes common sense, but it was still poor player management, everyone knew exactly what Barnes was like at that point, and it was probably a point of ego for Douglas (who opened the bowling himself in that match - a very poor bowler by pre war standards 45 @ 33).

In an all time team for example I think you’d need someone to massage Barnes’ (or certain other players) ego if you wanted him to bowl first change behind anyone.

Personally I’d go with “they need the help of the new ball way more than you” But I bet he’d see right through that.

I’m sure there’d be many arguments in an all time team amongst the bowlers re: opening/first change and I’m sure it would be the same for the batsmen (WHY DOES HE GET TO BAT IN MY SPOT?! YOU THINK HE’S BETTER THAN ME?)

 

[CricketFan90s]

Dennis Lillee - Highest Wicket Taker of 1970s
Ricky Ponting - Highest Run Scorer of 2000s - 1 Ashes, 2 World Cups, 2 Champion Trophies, 2 Test Series Wins in South Africa, 1 Test Series Win in India.

Ponting slightly ahead of Lillee.

 

[kyear2]

In that specific case well yes common sense, but it was still poor player management, everyone knew exactly what Barnes was like at that point, and it was probably a point of ego for Douglas (who opened the bowling himself in that match - a very poor bowler by pre war standards 45 @ 33).

In an all time team for example I think you’d need someone to massage Barnes’ (or certain other players) ego if you wanted him to bowl first change behind anyone.

Personally I’d go with “they need the help of the new ball way more than you” But I bet he’d see right through that.

I’m sure there’d be many arguments in an all time team amongst the bowlers re: opening/first change and I’m sure it would be the same for the batsmen (WHY DOES HE GET TO BAT IN MY SPOT?! YOU THINK HE’S BETTER THAN ME?)

Ummmmm

Viv and Sachin will argue over the 4th position, Sobers will stupidly argue to bowl more and will miss curfew. Morning Bradman is doing about the latter btw, lol.

Marshall is setting how own fields, Warne possibly as well.

Don't see that many other issues tbh.