The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

If you are building an all-round attack, you are going to have Marshall as your spearhead.

Then you need a seam specialist so it is either Hadlee or McGrath.

Then a third seamer/reverser which is either Steyn or Imran.

Imran makes far more sense than Steyn as a third seamer even if you think Steyn is better as an overall bowler.

Honestly, I think the most logical case is to do Marshall/Hadlee/Imran given the batting as well but it gets a bit boring to all be from the same era, so I replace Hadlee with McGrath.

This is the same era, than in another thread with Marshall, you said was weak.

For me Marshall and McGrath are non negotiables.

The third spot between Steyn, Hadlee and Imran, and the only it's not just Hadlee is because I was convinced that reverse had to be a consideration.

To pick all 3 pacers based on batting is also a bit silly to me, but yeah... Bat deep right?

 

[CricketFan90s]

This is the same era, than in another thread with Marshall, you said was weak.

For me Marshall and McGrath are non negotiables.

The third spot between Steyn, Hadlee and Imran, and the only it's not just Hadlee is because I was convinced that reverse had to be a consideration.

are you kidding where did curtly Ambrose go who caused earth quake in Australia ?

 

[subshakerz]

Tbh it would not surprise me either to have players learning reverse swing rather quickly. Hadlee for example could already swing it both ways. I don’t think its right to just “add” that to their resume assuming they’d be highly skilled at it though.

Some quotes from Hadlee on the subject.

(on reverse) We didn't know what it was. Sarfraz particularly was doing something with the ball that was different with big inswinging deliveries. And that’s what we thought it was, big inswinging deliveries because he could bowl outswing too. But we later found out that Pakistan had developed or found out what reverse swing is by looking after a ball and doing what they were doing. Today its a practice and a technique learnt by the fast-bowling trade and it’s a skilful practice. Some people are doing it very effectively. Well done. We didn’t know in our time.

(on Imran) He bowled big inswingers but we weren’t watching the ball closely enough to say whether the shiny side was this way or that and the ball should be going that way but coming in all of a sudden. We didn’t watch the ball all that closely.

(on tampering, clarifying an old statement) What would you call ball tampering? You can use natural saliva and sweat on the ball. You can’t use fingernails as it stands today.


Much more difficult to get away with developing a new delivery/method like that these days with all the tv angles and replays available.

I think as you said it's more than just learning it. You need to have an action that is conducive to reverse as well.

 

[CricketFan90s]

 

[subshakerz]

The third spot between Steyn, Hadlee and Imran, and the only it's not just Hadlee is because I was convinced that reverse had to be a consideration.

If reverse is the criteria, then surely Imran makes it.

Steyn ain't getting the new ball with Marshall and McGrath and is going to get caned once the shine is gone and until the ball is rough enough.

 

[CricketFan90s]

@kyear2 has no guts to respond to me, just avoiding all the logical points I put forward. He is like @Coronis has some personal beliefs and they put forward those belief system as rational argument.

 

[CricketFan90s]

The Best Combination of 4 Bowlers is to have a medium height bowlers like steyn or marshall as No 1 choice and a height bowlers who use their height like Ambrose or McGrath as No 2 Bowler or can also go with Hadlee to share the New Ball and a master of reverse swing as No 3 Bowler and 4th option as Warne who is a Leg Spinner or a Murali who is also good at doosra.

 

[subshakerz]

There's no argument that the away opponents and conditions that he faced were more difficult than Imran's and he did better than in contemporaries in most. That can't be said about Imran.

That's basically my position.

Yeah so with Steyn vs Imran, suddenly you discover that Steyn had it tougher.

But look at your change of tune when it came to Steyn vs Marshall, who bowled in the same era as Imran

But let's be honest, flat is flat. UAE pitches were very unhelpful, but so were the SC pitches during Marshall's time, which you're choosing to skip over. So were some of the pitches in the Caribbean, so were some of the Australian pitches.
I'm not questioning some of the conditions that Steyn faced, I'm saying not everywhere in the '80's were spice decks either. And Marshall adapted to those conditions better than Steyn did.

So depending on the bowler, you simply change your criteria or just reverse yourself, all to keep a pre-fixed order. You selectively choose when you want to soften or harden your points of relevance.

Complete double standards and shifting of goal posts.

 

[subshakerz]

@kyear2 has no guts to respond to me, just avoiding all the logical points I put forward. He is like @Coronis has some personal beliefs and they put forward those belief system as rational argument.

Get used to it. When he will eventually respond, he likely will not even address the point.

 

[centurymaker]

Imran > Steyn especially when it comes to picking for ATG XI.

 

[Coronis]

this is a sweet way to demean the contributions of players from some countries.

lol wtf how is that demeaning anyone? He says he didn’t know about it and praises them

@kyear2 has no guts to respond to me, just avoiding all the logical points I put forward. He is like @Coronis has some personal beliefs and they put forward those belief system as rational argument.

Hi kettle, this is pot.

 

[kyear2]

this is a sweet way to demean the contributions of players from some countries.

I see you're back with that shite again.

 

[CricketFan90s]

I see you're back with that ****e again.

you will never understand how to do a logical argument leave it.

 

[CricketFan90s]

lol wtf how is that demeaning anyone? He says he didn’t know about it and praises them



Hi kettle, this is pot.

yeah when you want 3 bowlers in ATG XI team you said 3 absolutely best bowlers we need so dump imran, but when i emphasized the importance of reverse swing suddenly you say anyone can learn it and we don't need an Imran or Wasim. So you know now who is kettle and Pot.

 

[Coronis]

yeah when you want 3 bowlers in ATG XI team you said 3 absolutely best bowlers we need so dump imran, but when i emphasized the importance of reverse swing suddenly you say anyone can learn it and we don't need an Imran or Wasim. So you know now who is kettle and Pot.

When did I ever say that? Don’t conflate my posts with other users.

 

[CricketFan90s]

When did I ever say that? Don’t conflate my posts with other users.

saying is equal to supporting

 

[Coronis]

saying is equal to supporting

lol. All I posted was Hadlee’s thoughts on the matter, and I actually supported the stance that we shouldn’t accept that bowlers who didn’t display reverse swing would be adept at it, and thus shouldn’t be judged on hypothetically learning/mastering it. Get a brain, mate.

 

[Starfighter]

lol. All I posted was Hadlee’s thoughts on the matter, and I actually supported the stance that we shouldn’t accept that bowlers who didn’t display reverse swing would be adept at it, and thus shouldn’t be judged on hypothetically learning/mastering it. Get a brain, mate.

People don't seem to realise accumulated knowledge exists in cricket. Once how something like reverse swing is achieved becomes known, other bowlers who couldn't do it before can learn how.

 

[CricketFan90s]

lol. All I posted was Hadlee’s thoughts on the matter, and I actually supported the stance that we shouldn’t accept that bowlers who didn’t display reverse swing would be adept at it, and thus shouldn’t be judged on hypothetically learning/mastering it. Get a brain, mate.

ok fine you are not here to accept that you are kettle or pot (which you are) but I understand.

 

[CricketFan90s]

People don't seem to realise accumulated knowledge exists in cricket. Once how something like reverse swing is achieved becomes known, other bowlers who couldn't do it before can learn how.

they can learn so please show the bowlers who were better than Imran, Wasim and Waqar at that reverse swing craft and we can include them in an All time XI.
Accumulated Knowledge should become Practically Applicable Knowledge. Warne was a master of Leg spin so please show me a bowler better than warne we are happy to include that player as there is lot of accumulated knowledge about leg spin as well.