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Was Dan Vettori better than the stats suggest

thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
I feel like some of y'all have a lot of trauma from the Vettori captaincy era whereas I sort of breeze over that era and have stronger recall of the Fleming era. Maybe just cos I'm old. To me Chris Martin is a second stringer who admirably battled on in his mid-30s when his superior but flakier contemporaries had packed it in.
 
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
thierry henry said:
Nah you're also focusing on the post-2008 bit where we were ****. Martin was down the pecking order until the end of his career when his contemporaries had faded away. Younger guys like Franklin and Tuffey had ok careers but had promised a lot more in the early and mid 2000s before fizzling out. Earlier in Vettori's career it was Cairns, Nash, Doull.

Generally in the early and mid 2000s it was Vettori and a battery of medium fast bowlers averaging 29-32.
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Mate check the figures post 2001. Those blokes played **** all
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
thierry henry said:
He fizzled out badly and basically ended up a non-bower, but he still has a better test average than Martin. Genuinely was a decent test bowler circa 2004-2006ish but for reasons I never quite understood he dramatically dropped his pace and pretended to be a batter
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Because his bowling was trash even when he reached his ceiling. Was never threatening top level batsmen with his 125kph half volleys. Made more sense to try and be a batsman
 
thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
Athlai said:
stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com stats.espncricinfo.com
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This proves that Martin was the most regularly available seamer. What it also shows is that Martin played 36 tests, the next 6 seamers on the list played a combined 112 tests, and every single one of them had a better average than both Martin and Vettori. It wasn't consistently the same guy(s) supporting the stalwarts Martin and Vettori, it was some combination of those guys filling the other spots. Martin generally wasn't as good as those guys and while it's a matter of perception, I wouldn't have perceived him as leading the attack, simply because any one of those 6 guys below him on that list were arguably more effective when playing alongside him.

That's my point, during that era you had Vettori plodding along averaging mid-30s, Bond occasionally popping in and gunning it, a rotation of ok seamers averaging 30-odd, and Chris Martin being one of the lesser seamers in terms of effectiveness but regularly playing because he tended to stay injury free.

Coming back to Vettori, I still don't get how any of this shows him being the classy spinner playing alongside lesser seamers.
 
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
thierry henry said:
This proves that Martin was the most regularly available seamer. What it also shows is that Martin played 36 tests, the next 6 seamers on the list played a combined 112 tests, and every single one of them had a better average than both Martin and Vettori. It wasn't consistently the same guy(s) supporting the stalwarts Martin and Vettori, it was some combination of those guys filling the other spots. Martin generally wasn't as good as those guys and while it's a matter of perception, I wouldn't have perceived him as leading the attack, simply because any one of those 6 guys below him on that list were arguably more effective when playing alongside him.

That's my point, during that era you had Vettori plodding along averaging mid-30s, Bond occasionally popping in and gunning it, a rotation of ok seamers averaging 30-odd, and Chris Martin being one of the lesser seamers in terms of effectiveness but regularly playing because he tended to stay injury free.

Coming back to Vettori, I still don't get how any of this shows him being the classy spinner playing alongside lesser seamers.
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The whole point I made was he'd have likely performed better with a better seamer attack like Southee/Boult/Wagner. It has nothing to do with being a classy spinner alongside lesser seamers.

As Gegs wee link shows, when he actually had a proper good seamer in Bond at the other end, he (and other players) performed significantly better.

Vettori isn't particularly a wicket taker, but that doesn't mean he can't play a big role in a team that helps to emphasise his strengths. NZ for the majority of his career, wasn't that team.
 
thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
Athlai said:
The whole point I made was he'd have likely performed better with a better seamer attack like Southee/Boult/Wagner. It has nothing to do with being a classy spinner alongside lesser seamers.
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Guess it's just a matter of framing and phrasing then. If Vettori is on roughly level footing with the seamers then it's strange to me to focus on how the seamers sucked and how they could have helped Vettori more. You could just as easily focus on how Vettori sucked and could have helped the seamers more. The focus on how a particular player would have been better with more support (while saying the support he had sucked) tends to imply that that player is the superior one.

As Gegs wee link shows, when he actually had a proper good seamer in Bond at the other end, he (and other players) performed significantly better.
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It definitely shows that Bond made those around him better but I don't see how it says anything about the level of support Vettori received when Bond wasn't around, other than that Bond was better than our other seamers. In terms of Vettori vs Seamers, it's another piece of evidence that they were all at roughly a similar level.

Vettori isn't particularly a wicket taker, but that doesn't mean he can't play a big role in a team that helps to emphasise his strengths. NZ for the majority of his career, wasn't that team.
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Vettori was an ok test bowler and in a stronger attack would have been better. Again, that's a truism but I don't get how it applies more to him than anyone else. I don't see the evidence that Vettori was any better than the seamers he played with, so if he sucked then they sucked, and if he would've been good with better support than they would have been good with better support - and the Bond-evidence proves that exact point. So I'm not really sure where any of this gets us.

Big homie was a mid spinner in a team with some mid seamers.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Athlai said:
Vettori probably would've benefitted immensely from having a Southee/Boult/Wagner quality attack to build and sustain pressure at the other end. While he was consistently very difficult to score off, after his injury, he was never a wicket taker.
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That's fair. His stats in the few games he played alongside Bond are much better than his overall stats.
 
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
Vettori is a bit like Oram - good at building pressure but doesn't get you wickets unless someone else is doing the same at the other end.
 
wellAlbidarned

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
one of my favourite niche dan memories is him bowling six straight ones in a row to Warner and him mistiming almost every one due to playing for turn. Think there must be something about his action where he looks like hes putting decent revs on the ball so it's hard for some batsmen to override the muscle memory, even if they intellectually know he doesn't turn it.
 
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