Marshall vs Hadlee (overall cricketers)

[smash84]

I'll be honest, this poll is a lot closer than I thought it would be

 

[Coronis]

But you're thinking I'm putting down one or the other. I have one 5th and one 6th all time, and the last I typed it out Hadlee was ahead.

But McGrath, just had those little nuances as a bowler that's enough to be ahead of Paddles for me, and yes there is a huge difference in batting, and I have no way to prove this...

But if I had to pick two guys to play for me for a decade I'm going with Maco and Pidgeon, I can't make it make sense to you I just think they are winning more games with the ball for me than Hadlee is with the extra batting and I just want those two bowling together.

But yes, to be clear, as cricketers, Hadlee would likely have to be ahead.

So vote that way

 

[kyear2]

So vote that way

That was between Hadlee and McGrath.

Keep up.

 

[kyear2]

The entire purpose of the site is to have (hopefully) civil conversations with like minded individuals about the game we love, but it's almost antagonistic all the time.

Why do I have to agree with you? You have some out there views and as much as I disagree with them no one pressures you to change them.

 

[smash84]

The entire purpose of the site is to have (hopefully) civil conversations with like minded individuals about the game we love, but it's almost antagonistic all the time.

Why do I have to agree with you? You have some out there views and as much as I disagree with them no one pressures you to change them.

Nobody is asking you to change your views. They're just asking you to be consistent and not changing them selectively. Bending over backwards to put your favorites on top while going out of your way to crap over other players ignoring your otherwise previous views

 

[subshakerz]

But McGrath, just had those little nuances as a bowler that's enough to be ahead of Paddles for me, and yes there is a huge difference in batting, and I have no way to prove this...

Exactly. Thanks. Next time just say at the outset you are just doing gut checks rather than arguments on player merits.

 

[kyear2]

Honestly, if you think Hadlee is 50/50 with McGrath including batting, thats just so disconnected from cricket reality I find it hard to take seriously. They have a 20 run difference in batting while being very hard to separate as bowlers, unlike Marshall IMO. This isn't close. Hadlee is obviously a better cricketer.

It's almost like you never watched a game where lower order batting played a role.

I have, but how much have you watched when they haven't?

And I can also ask that to most of our members with regards to the impact of slip fielders. Watch any match on a helpful pitch, and we'll all watched the recent Aus / Pak series. It matters.

The great thing about 5th bowling options, is that they play a role if they succeed or not. Once they aren't being thrashed around the park they are filling a role allowing the front line guys to rotate and giving them a rest. Wickets and 5'fers are a bonus.

 

[kyear2]

Nobody is asking you to change your views. They're just asking you to be consistent and not changing them selectively. Bending over backwards to put your favorites on top while going out of your way to crap over other players ignoring your otherwise previous views

Who's bending over to place anyone on top? My personal rankings are in the ATG thread, and updated as they change. That's my top 3, have been for years, McGrath used to be 4 and Hobbs 5, but I've moved up Hadlee over McGrath because of the difference in batting. Think I moved up Hobbs as well.

So no, nothing has changed, some just don't like who I've selected, and that's crazy considering "my favorites" are already among the top 5 guys.

And who the hell have I crapped on?

 

[kyear2]

Exactly. Thanks. Next time just say at the outset you are just doing gut checks rather than arguments on player merits.

That was in regards to McGrath being rated higher than Hadlee as a bowler, that's it.
I think Glenn was a better bowler, as does the majority of the community as per every poll we've ever done.

Seriously, what are you picking at?

 

[subshakerz]

Who's bending over to place anyone on top? My personal rankings are in the ATG thread, and updated as they change. That's my top 3, have been for years, McGrath used to be 4 and Hobbs 5, but I've moved up Hadlee over McGrath because of the difference in batting. Think I moved up Hobbs as well.

So no, nothing has changed, some just don't like who I've selected, and that's crazy considering "my favorites" are already among the top 5 guys.

And who the hell have I crapped on?

Nobody cares about your rankings. It has always been about your upside down criteria to justify them.

 

[subshakerz]

I have, but how much have you watched when they haven't?

And I can also ask that to most of our members with regards to the impact of slip fielders. Watch any match on a helpful pitch, and we'll all watched the recent Aus / Pak series. It matters.

The great thing about 5th bowling options, is that they play a role if they succeed or not. Once they aren't being thrashed around the park they are filling a role allowing the front line guys to rotate and giving them a rest. Wickets and 5'fers are a bonus.

Again, look at India in India today, or even with Vettori back in the day, or SA in late 90s, where low order batting was consistent enough a factor to make a difference in valuing a player.

Look, I have been trying to downplay Hadlee's batting in this thread but it's still something that adds real value to a side. If you don't consider it a firm deal breaker between him and McGrath, IMO you've lost the plot.

 

[kyear2]

Nobody cares about your rankings. It has always been about your upside down criteria to justify them.

That's bullshit now, everytime someone asks a question and I answer it, the goal posts change.

1. Do I ask you to justify yours? Or anyone's? Even Coronis ranking Viv 15th among his batsmen, does anyone ask him to justify that?

1. Bradman , best batsman ever.
2. Sobers, top 3 batsman ever and best all round cricketer to play the game
3. Marshall, best bowler ever spearheaded possibly the greatest attack and one if the two greatest teams ever. No one matches his resume and skill set.
4. Hobbs, the original Master and the one who Bradman over took. Greatest opener ever
5. Hadlee, too 3 bowler of all time and useful lower order bat.
6. McGrath, top 2 bowler of all time, spearheaded the one if the two greatest teams of all time. Wasn't impacted by the era change.
7. Sachin Tendulkar, 2nd best batsman ever, incredible consistency

Tell me what's crazy about that or that requires justification.

 

[kyear2]

Again, look at India in India today, or even with Vettori back in the day, or SA in late 90s, where low order batting was consistent enough a factor to make a difference in ⁹valuing a player.

Look, I have been trying to downplay Hadlee's batting in this thread but it's still something that adds real value to a side. If you don't consider it a firm deal breaker between him and McGrath, IMO you've lost the plot.

I literally said the man is a place above McGrath. But for me it's close, closer than for most because I rate winning and McGrath was a winner. And that will just spark a whole new conversation, but I don't care at this point.

But I don't hear similar arguments for Kallis over Sachin, or Hammond over Hobbs.

There's a one way double standard by most when it comes to all rounders apparently, white one half is recognized and one just isn't.

 

[subshakerz]

That's bull**** now, everytime someone asks a question and I answer it, the goal posts change.

1. Do I ask you to justify yours? Or anyone's? Even Coronis ranking Viv 15th among his batsmen, does anyone ask him to justify that?

1. Bradman , best batsman ever.
2. Sobers, top 3 batsman ever and best all round cricketer to play the game
3. Marshall, best bowler ever spearheaded possibly the greatest attack and one if the two greatest teams ever. No one matches his resume and skill set.
4. Hobbs, the original Master and the one who Bradman over took. Greatest opener ever
5. Hadlee, too 3 bowler of all time and useful lower order bat.
6. McGrath, top 2 bowler of all time, spearheaded the one if the two greatest teams of all time. Wasn't impacted by the era change.
7. Sachin Tendulkar, 2nd best batsman ever, incredible consistency

Tell me what's crazy about that or that requires justification.

Dude why are you giving me your rankings AGAIN when I just told you I don't care?

Its your arguments which fall apart when you go into why you justify certain things. Countless examples from downplaying SC pacers at home to disregarding Hadlee's batting to giving bonus points to players for topping your selective rankings. You should just stick to saying these are your favorites because you have the 'feels'.

 

[kyear2]

Dude why are you giving me your rankings AGAIN when I just told you I don't care?

Its your arguments which fall apart when you go into why you justify certain things. Countless examples from downplaying SC pacers at home to disregarding Hadlee's batting to giving bonus points to players for topping your selective rankings. You should just to saying these are your favorites because you have the 'feels'.

No, you've told me I've bent over backwards to justify my criteria and poor choices, tell me which ones are beyond the pale and require justification.

I'm eager to learn the folly of my ways.

 

[subshakerz]

I literally said the man is a place above McGrath. But for me it's close, closer than for most because I rate winning and McGrath was a winner. And that will just spark a whole new conversation, but I don't care at this point.

Oh wow, here we go again, a new fangled criteria you have concocted mid way in an argument. This is what we are talking about.

But I don't hear similar arguments for Kallis over Sachin, or Hammond over Hobbs.

There's a one way double standard by most when it comes to all rounders apparently, white one half is recognized and one just isn't.

Come on this is junior level posting here.

Kallis and Tendulkar as bats are not Hadlee and McGrath close as bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

Oh wow, here we go again, a new fangled criteria you have concocted mid way in an argument. This is what we are talking about.


Come on this is junior level posting here.

Kallis and Tendulkar as bats are not Hadlee and McGrath close as bowlers.

Ummm, so they have to be close to be rated above?

Hammond is pretty close.

I'll just leave that here.

 

[Coronis]

That was between Hadlee and McGrath.

Keep up.

The previous paragraph in that post mentioned both McGrath and Marshall, it wasn’t specified as to whether you meant one or both.

Keep calm, and carry on.

That's bull**** now, everytime someone asks a question and I answer it, the goal posts change.

1. Do I ask you to justify yours? Or anyone's? Even Coronis ranking Viv 15th among his batsmen, does anyone ask him to justify that?

1. Bradman , best batsman ever.
2. Sobers, top 3 batsman ever and best all round cricketer to play the game
3. Marshall, best bowler ever spearheaded possibly the greatest attack and one if the two greatest teams ever. No one matches his resume and skill set.
4. Hobbs, the original Master and the one who Bradman over took. Greatest opener ever
5. Hadlee, too 3 bowler of all time and useful lower order bat.
6. McGrath, top 2 bowler of all time, spearheaded the one if the two greatest teams of all time. Wasn't impacted by the era change.
7. Sachin Tendulkar, 2nd best batsman ever, incredible consistency

Tell me what's crazy about that or that requires justification.

Ah yes, you personally have questioned me multiple times on this as have others, you’ve stopped questioning me because you couldn’t rationalise against my logical arguments so… I win.

 

[kyear2]

The previous paragraph in that post mentioned both McGrath and Marshall, it wasn’t specified as to whether you meant one or both.

Keep calm, and carry on.



Ah yes, you personally have questioned me multiple times on this as have others, you’ve stopped questioning me because you couldn’t rationalise against my logical arguments so… I win.

It was, and I am calm thanks.

I never pressured you about it, I asked you answered. Didn't make sense and we agreed to disagree. I never said you were wrong and should change your opinion.

 

[Coronis]

It was, and I am calm thanks.

I never pressured you about it, I asked you answered. Didn't make sense and we agreed to disagree. I never said you were wrong and should change your opinion.

lol I never said you pressured me? Like in the post I quoted, you asked “Does anyone ask Coronis to justify ranking Viv 15th?” and yes, yes you did lol

We all ask someone to justify a hot take or one we personally disagree with, iirc its a big part of these ATG/Player Comparison discussion.