shortpitched713
International Captain
Good question, we should make a poll of Line and Length polls, to determine the winner!
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2022 v 2024 Bowlers Polls
- Thread starter Line and Length
- Start date
Coronis
International Coach
My poor Davo
Also Botham was only up 7 rather than the 9 listed.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Jadeja suffers from not being big brained and not having 18,000 variations. He’s ridiculously effective, though.
Even with home pitch support etc, a 20-ish average as a spinner is staggering.
Even with home pitch support etc, a 20-ish average as a spinner is staggering.
Coronis
International Coach
ftfy
Socerer 01
International Captain
what does McGrath even have to do with the convo? no one’s docking points from McGrath in the 1st place
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Two-thirds of his matches are at home and his away record is much worse than his home one.
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
Both fixed
Socerer 01
International Captain
oh great this thing again
can someone pull up that stat which shows how amazingly well spinners have performed in NZ and SA when India tour?
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
And then the bias of spin performance in India, perhaps? Your argument is biased too. And funny how effective Neil Brand and Nathan Lyon were in NZ this summer, eh?
RossTaylorsBox
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
RIP Heath
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I just don’t get the selectivity of the argument. If he’d played 50/50 home and away, I’d feel more comfortable with that argument. Part of the NZ underperformance of spinners in general is that NZ have invariably had **** ones, which then skews the stats of spinner performance- regardless of the pitches.
But I do expect to be swarmed like Michael Caine in one of those B movies he does for the cash monies.
Well yeah, Brand and Lyon got better conditions for them. It's clearly obvious to anyone with eyes. Spinners average like 10-20 less runs when India don't tour than when they do tour.
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Quite. So why aren’t we downplaying Indian spinner success in India when conditions are tailor made for them - particularly when a player has such a home skew in games played. You can’t have it both ways.
Socerer 01
International Captain
yeah its funny how NZ roll out pitches that can spin when other teams tour to the extent that a batting all rounder picks up his 1st ever 5 wicket haul in first class cricket in his debut tour with a weakened team
i made no argument prior either, not sure which argument of mine you’re calling biased
Socerer 01
International Captain
people are already doing that not sure what your point is here bro
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don’t think it’s being taken into account enough by a long way. But I know you and Xix won’t be convinced - I’ve seen your existing debates and your approach so far to this question.
Socerer 01
International Captain
idk what is this mythical and hypothetical argument i’ve made on this topic. scratch that idk what even the topic is
Socerer 01
International Captain
i’ll try to play along with what @trundler was originally on with Jim Laker as an eg and I’ll do it in the most checklisty way possible because thats the language this place loves
Laker played 45% of tests that his country played in the years he was active internationally in tests, Jadeja played 60% of tests that his country played in the years he has been active internationally in tests. ofc Jadeja here is helped by him being an all rounder even if the Indian team hasnt picked him like that for years but Jadeja also is a 3 format player whose workload is managed across those formats
both players are accused of being only picked in advantageous conditions even if i think its unfair to both of them
Laker played 58% of his matches at home, Jadeja is at 63%
Laker’s home away avg split is 10, Jadeja’s is 11.5
here’s the kicker, in matches involving Laker
outdone by Lock, significantly so by Wardle and Tayfield with smaller sample sizes
same for Jadeja
outdone by Ashwin as i pointed out in another thread, Kuldeep but his sample size is nowhere near the same and then 1 individual series of spicy af pitches that benefitted Tahir and SOK each
before the usual suspects hit me with the “look at him, shitting on an atg oldie goldie to make his favourite appear gold”, the point of this isnt to say that i think Jadeja > Laker, i dont think that. its that people are pretending like Jadeja doesnt belong in that convo @trundler alluded to of the best of the rest following the big 3 spinners when on paper he does??? to people who also watched him bowl regularly, they know his skill and how many times he’s made the difference on dead pitches. and yet everytime its the same cliches that are thrown at him of not playing all matches ignoring the presence of Ashwin to diss on him like trundler and Heath did here when the same could be thrown at even an atg here like Laker and these players dont get anywhere near the same levels of scrutiny
checklisting for today over
Laker played 45% of tests that his country played in the years he was active internationally in tests, Jadeja played 60% of tests that his country played in the years he has been active internationally in tests. ofc Jadeja here is helped by him being an all rounder even if the Indian team hasnt picked him like that for years but Jadeja also is a 3 format player whose workload is managed across those formats
both players are accused of being only picked in advantageous conditions even if i think its unfair to both of them
Laker played 58% of his matches at home, Jadeja is at 63%
Laker’s home away avg split is 10, Jadeja’s is 11.5
here’s the kicker, in matches involving Laker
outdone by Lock, significantly so by Wardle and Tayfield with smaller sample sizes
same for Jadeja
outdone by Ashwin as i pointed out in another thread, Kuldeep but his sample size is nowhere near the same and then 1 individual series of spicy af pitches that benefitted Tahir and SOK each
before the usual suspects hit me with the “look at him, shitting on an atg oldie goldie to make his favourite appear gold”, the point of this isnt to say that i think Jadeja > Laker, i dont think that. its that people are pretending like Jadeja doesnt belong in that convo @trundler alluded to of the best of the rest following the big 3 spinners when on paper he does??? to people who also watched him bowl regularly, they know his skill and how many times he’s made the difference on dead pitches. and yet everytime its the same cliches that are thrown at him of not playing all matches ignoring the presence of Ashwin to diss on him like trundler and Heath did here when the same could be thrown at even an atg here like Laker and these players dont get anywhere near the same levels of scrutiny
checklisting for today over
People do downplay quite a lot, even to the point of overdoing it when this sort of nonsense never seems to pop up for most non-Murali/Warne spinners, let alone pacers. And how am I having it both ways? Would be nice if people did actually make proper arguments that included conditions in an intelligent manner rather than a way to mark down players for 'statpadding'.