Debate thread for 2024 ranking of bowlers poll

[ma1978]

Jadeja is a support bowler, he’s not a lead spinner. He’s in the team for his batting.

 

[ataraxia]

I would be interested to hear @ataraxia thoughts on the Jadeja vs Kumble comparison too since he voted for Jadeja over the other spinners as well and is quite knowledgeable on all of them from what I've seen on playing drafts with him.

Well I'm not very knowledgeable on them and their records lol and I think you'd be much better equipped to give your opinion according to your own precepts of how you rate players when it comes to Kumble and Jadeja, given you've watched them.

Lyon and Underwood are clearly ahead of Jadeja IMO, and likely Kumble too based on longevity. But if in doubt, the answer is ...

 

[capt_Luffy]

@capt_Luffy I am a huge fan of Jadeja. I haven't watched Underwood or Bedi but having watched both Kumble and Jadeja over the years, I do genuinely think that Jadeja is slightly the better bowler compared to Kumble. India had such a strong batting lineup during Kumble's time but Kumble and Co flattered to deceive when it came to bowling the opposition out, home or away, many a times. Jadeja has been a genuine match winner bowling with or without Ashwin and has turned the match with the ball quite a few times when the Indian batsmen failed. Hence, my vote to him over Kumble.

I would be interested to hear @ataraxia thoughts on the Jadeja vs Kumble comparison too since he voted for Jadeja over the other spinners as well and is quite knowledgeable on all of them from what I've seen on playing drafts with him.

To clarify, I understand the reasons if everyone else votes for others over him. It is not connected to subz at all.

I think only Kumble has a good argument to be better, but I voted for Jadeja first earlier and it'd be considered weak and inconsistent to switch order now.

I genuinely don't think Jadeja is among India's top 5 spinners and doesn't make the cut for my top 20, but if you guys do so; then I have no right to complain about.

 

[Sunil1z]

Here is an interesting exercise I did . I checked average of Jadeja in matches in which both him and Lyon to see how they did on same pitch .

 

[capt_Luffy]

Here is an interesting exercise I did . I checked average of Jadeja in matches in which both him and Lyon to see how they did on same pitch .
View attachment 39795

Yeah, but you have to account for the fact that most of them were played at his home.
Don't get me wrong, I love Jadeja, but ranking Jadeja so high above what I perceive as 10 better spinners is a bit bonkers to me. But as CA and Xix stated, they genuinely feel so; so no problem there.

 

[Sunil1z]

Yeah, but you have to account for the fact that most of them were played at his home.

But Shouldn’t Lyon out bowl him on these dustbowls ?

Same for Ashwin and Lyon ( when both played )

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Jadeja's record in away tests is mediocre. He plays many more home tests than away tests which makes his overall record look better. Underwood's record (as an example) is more balanced and he also played slightly more away tests than home tests. I don't see how Jadeja comes into this conversation tbh. As an all-rounder on the other hand, extremely useful.

 

[Sunil1z]

Yeah, but you have to account for the fact that most of them were played at his home.
Don't get me wrong, I love Jadeja, but ranking Jadeja so high above what I perceive as 10 better spinners is a bit bonkers to me. But as CA and Xix stated, they genuinely feel so; so no problem there.

I also don’t feel he is better . But he would have been rated a lot higher if his bowling average was 26-27 instead of current .

 

[Xix2565]

Feels like you don't rate Jadeja's ability as a bowler from my POV with these types of posts.

 

[Sunil1z]

Jadeja's record in away tests is mediocre. He plays many more home tests than away tests which makes his overall record look better. Underwood's record (as an example) is more balanced and he also played slightly more away tests than home tests. I don't see how Jadeja comes into this conversation tbh. As an all-rounder on the other hand, extremely useful.

Is it possible that Teams are preparing green tops to absolutely negate Ashwin/ Jadeja . For eg. Keshav Maharaj averages 85 in the matches in which both him and Jadeja have played . I feel Maharaj is a good spinner

 

[Sunil1z]

Feels like you don't rate Jadeja's ability as a bowler from my POV with these types of posts.

He isn’t a lead spinner .

 

[CricAddict]

Yeah, but you have to account for the fact that most of them were played at his home.
Don't get me wrong, I love Jadeja, but ranking Jadeja so high above what I perceive as 10 better spinners is a bit bonkers to me. But as CA and Xix stated, they genuinely feel so; so no problem there.

Yes. The interesting exercise which Sunilz has mentioned above is something that I have done myself quite sometime back. And not just with Lyon, with all the other spinners who've played with him in the same tests, It's very rare that he gets a spin conducive pitch away due to which the record of other spinners in the tests with him is all bad. Jadeja comes out on top comfortably compared to them all, home or away, which is one big reason why I think he is underrated as a bowler compared to others.

But there is no hiding the fact that his away record taken without considering other factors is not great. So, it's fine if others vote him down for that.

 

[TheJediBrah]

But Shouldn’t Lyon out bowl him on these dustbowls ?

Why would he? They aren't the types of wickets he's developed his game for. They are the types of wickets Jadeja is ideal for.

You would expect, all things being equal*, that Jadeja would bowl better on his home wickets than Lyon, and Lyon would bowl better on his home wickets.

*of course all things aren't equal. The other problem with this overly-simplistic analysis is they aren't bowling to the same batsmen in these games. One is bowling to India and the other is bowling to Australia.

 

[CricAddict]

Why would he? They aren't the types of wickets he's developed his game for. They are the types of wickets Jadeja is ideal for.

You would expect, all things being equal*, that Jadeja would bowl better on his home wickets than Lyon, and Lyon would bowl better on his home wickets.

*of course all things aren't equal. The other problem with this overly-simplistic analysis is they aren't bowling to the same batsmen in these games. One is bowling to India and the other is bowling to Australia.

The batting strength of India and Australia is more or less equal. And in the tests they've played together in Australia as well, Jadeja's record is better than Lyon.

 

[CricAddict]

He isn’t a lead spinner .

Had made this point in another thread too a few days back. One can't penalize Jadeja for Ashwin being good.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The batting strength of India and Australia is more or less equal. And in the tests they've played together in Australia as well, Jadeja's record is better than Lyon.

This doesn't refute any of my logic

Anyway I would counter that ability to play spin is not equal. India play Lyon in Australia a lot better than they play the seam bowlers

 

[Xix2565]

He isn’t a lead spinner .

If there can only be one lead spinner/bowler in general, a lot of the bowlers voted in the thread's list and quite a few votes shouldn't be as highly rated. It's fine if you mark him down for things like this but the same goes for other choices too.

 

[Sunil1z]

Man NZ and SA have taken pitch doctoring to insane level in matches involving INDIA since Ashwin/Jadeja have started playing.

No home spinners have taken even 5 wkts

 

[TheJediBrah]

NZ and SA sneaky cheats



real teams do it openly

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Is it possible that Teams are preparing green tops to absolutely negate Ashwin/ Jadeja . For eg. Keshav Maharaj averages 85 in the matches in which both him and Jadeja have played . I feel Maharaj is a good spinner

And? Isn't that the point of playing away? You can absolutely use the same argument that India are preparing pitches suit for Ashwin/Jadeja or at least against the general batting skills of players from Australia and England - the most common tourists.

Also I'm not sure that NZ really know what pitches are being prepared for them given the selectorial ineptitude shown in the recent Australia series.