Was WI ATG team overhyped?

[Slifer]

Aus 79/80, Eng 80/81 and Pak 80/81 were all strong teams beaten by WI.

Especially that Australian team.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

No, I disagree that that 4-man spin attack would win anywhere. If it was a real greentop which lasts 2 days, that attack would lose.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

But who in all of this criticized any of India's spinners?

My ATG XI has in a spinner, all of them have spinners. But why force in one when the option isn't as good as the pavers available.

Agree. If he wasn't a quality batter, Vettori wouldn't make an ATG NZ side either, for instance.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I don't think an all spin attack, no matter how good, will win you a game/series everywhere too.

But I also don't think 4 pacers, no matter how good they are, will win you a series in India vs an all time India lineup. You could literally bring Marshall, McGrath (or replace with whomever you think is the best pacer to tour India), Hadlee and Steyn and nope - they aren't beating Ashwin, Jadeja, Kumble and Bumrah in India.

 

[Sunil1z]

No, I disagree that that 4-man spin attack would win anywhere. If it was a real greentop which lasts 2 days, that attack would lose.

Then 4 man pace attack would lose on this type of pitch

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Yes, it probably would.

 

[Sunil1z]

Agree. If he wasn't a quality batter, Vettori wouldn't make an ATG NZ side either, for instance.

You should play Ajaz Patel more . How will he develop when you don’t play him at Home ?

England regularly plays Leach , SA plays Maharaj , Aus plays Lyon . You should play one too .

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think an all spin attack, no matter how good, will win you a game/series everywhere too.

But I also don't think 4 pacers, no matter how good they are, will win you a series in India vs an all time India lineup. You could literally bring Marshall, McGrath (or replace with whomever you think is the best pacer to tour India), Hadlee and Steyn and nope - they aren't beating Ashwin, Jadeja, Kumble and Bumrah in India.

History says pace attacks can win you series in India so I don't see why it doesn't apply in an ATG case.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

You should play Ajaz Patel more . How will he develop when you don’t play him at Home ?

England regularly plays Leach , SA plays Maharaj , Aus plays Lyon . You should play one too .

I think we will play both Phillips and Ravindra at home for the next few years. Both are bowling well and are clearly better than part-timers. In a couple of years I think someone like young leggie Adithya Ashok will be good.

 

[Socerer 01]

History says pace attacks can win you series in India so I don't see why it doesn't apply in an ATG case.

what history exactly????

 

[Sunil1z]

History says pace attacks can win you series in India so I don't see why it doesn't apply in an ATG case.

History also says
1. Our net bowler beat Aus at Gabba ( Sorry Aussie fans )
2 . Our spin attack won us a Test series in Eng
3 . We haven’t lost a Test to WI since 2002

So can I use all these data points to extrapolate that We will beat AUS , WI , ENG ATG team ?
This is what happens when you use 3 Test series in last 41 years to make your point .

 

[Sunil1z]

I don’t think any Team will come even close to beating AUS ATG team at their home .
But I will selectively use 11 Test series loss in last 43 years lost by AUS at home to prove that AUS ATG team can be beaten at home and completely ignore the strength of respective Teams .

 

[Slifer]

I don't think an all spin attack, no matter how good, will win you a game/series everywhere too.

But I also don't think 4 pacers, no matter how good they are, will win you a series in India vs an all time India lineup. You could literally bring Marshall, McGrath (or replace with whomever you think is the best pacer to tour India), Hadlee and Steyn and nope - they aren't beating Ashwin, Jadeja, Kumble and Bumrah in India.

But an all pace attack, imo would be more effective in more places than an all spin attack.

Marshall
Steyn
Hadlee
McGrath

Vs

Warne
Murali
O'Reilly
Ashwin

The pace attack would be more effective, imo everywhere with the exceptions of in India and SL. And all due respect to Warne and Murali in particular, they posed absolutely no threat to the best batsmen of their time, where as McGrath routinely routed them both. Admittedly, he did get pasted by them occasionally.

 

[Sunil1z]

But an all pace attack, imo would be more effective in more places than an all spin attack.

Marshall
Steyn
Hadlee
McGrath

Vs

Warne
Murali
O'Reilly
Ashwin

The pace attack would be more effective, imo everywhere with the exceptions of in India and SL. And all due respect to Warne and Murali in particular, they posed absolutely no threat to the best batsmen of their time, where as McGrath routinely routed them both. Admittedly, he did get pasted by them occasionally.

Even in PAK , spin attack will outperform pace attack. Don’t forget Pak is absolute graveyard for fast bowlers .

 

[subshakerz]

love how the discussion has turned into an exercise to subtly bash Indian players and team after a certain user with a history of doing it everywhere pops up and throws in his usual tangents too

and when this is pointed out you’ll have “neutrals” rush in and say its cringe or whatever to point it out

I have tried twice to bring the conversation back to WI tho.

 

[subshakerz]

what history exactly????

Posted earlier:

I think contrary to how it's presented, using pace to win in India is a more viable strategy than using spin.

83 WI won through pace.

86/87 Pak won the series on a lottery spin pitch.

2000 SA won through pace mainly, Boje only took a fifer to seal it when it was a foregone conclusion.

2004/5 Aus won with their pace trio and Warne was support.

2012 Eng definitely won with Monty/Swann combo and Anderson support.

 

[Slifer]

Even in PAK , spin attack will outperform pace attack. Don’t forget Pak is absolute graveyard for fast bowlers .

It's not. 3 series vs WI pace attacks '80, '86 and '90, PAK nor the WI ever posted a 400 run plus score. Both teams (WI and pak) bowled out for under 100 in 1986 on the back of pace. No spinner has a better record in Pakistan than Wasim, Imran, Marshall and Walsh. Remember, Pakistan do have there own share of pace bowlers that we can call upon.

So again, only in India and SL would a spin attack be more effective than a pace attack.

 

[subshakerz]

History also says
1. Our net bowler beat Aus at Gabba ( Sorry Aussie fans )
2 . Our spin attack won us a Test series in Eng
3 . We haven’t lost a Test to WI since 2002

So can I use all these data points to extrapolate that We will beat AUS , WI , ENG ATG team ?
This is what happens when you use 3 Test series in last 41 years to make your point .

Because you can't use singe series example to make a point? I pointed to three series in India where a mighty pace attack (Windies quartet, Donald/Pollock and McGrath/Gillespie) beat India.

I don't think it's a doubt that such an attack would do well against India at home. You yourself made that point. The only question is if the opposing batting lineup would do worse.

 

[Socerer 01]

Posted earlier:

I think contrary to how it's presented, using pace to win in India is a more viable strategy than using spin.

83 WI won through pace.

86/87 Pak won the series on a lottery spin pitch.

2000 SA won through pace mainly, Boje only took a fifer to seal it when it was a foregone conclusion.

2004/5 Aus won with their pace trio and Warne was support.

2012 Eng definitely won with Monty/Swann combo and Anderson support.

not sure why you’re overrating 80s Indian teams, the team in 2000 wasnt great either. besides Boje played a part in the 2nd test in all innings, not just the end. worth noting that SA also opted to debut Boje in this series rather than pick an extra pacer

love how by the end even you cant keep the ruse up and you’re forced to use Monty/Swann combo like they were steaming in bowling fire pace when they were spinners lmao while your support Anderson was the real pacer. and this was against the weakest Indian team in over 10 years

so the conclusion is that you need a top 3 pacer of all time, an atg spinner for support backed by the strongest batting lineup at that time, an atvg pacer having a great series with the opponent’s best batsman playing half of the series being in **** form

if thats what is needed for pace to be the primary factor for series wins in India, its not a coincidence that in an era of unprecedented pace dominance teams are opting to debut spinners with little experience or throw rookies into the mix rather than play their pacers as the main weapons whenever they tour here

 

[Sunil1z]

It's not. 3 series vs WI pace attacks '80, '86 and '90, PAK nor the WI ever posted a 400 run plus score. Both teams (WI and pak) bowled out for under 100 in 1986 on the back of pace. No spinner has a better record in Pakistan than Wasim, Imran, Marshall and Walsh. Remember, Pakistan do have there own share of pace bowlers that we can call upon.

So again, only in India and SL would a spin attack be more effective than a pace attack.

Both Warne and Murali have won their Team many series in pak . They might average slightly more because they bowl more as you would expect from a spinner

Similarly in Eng and NZ , Warne and Murali have won their Teams many series

Warne also won his side many series in SA .
Warne and O’Reilly were absolute champs in AUS .
So except WI where both Warne/Murali struggle. I don’t see them doing worse than their pace counterparts. They might average more but they would also win you more Test single handedly as they take 5 wkt haul frequently.