Was WI ATG team overhyped?

[capt_Luffy]

mb lol I misread him as playing only 6 tests when looking at his English stats.

But, he played all 14 at home. Headley did score a ton against him. He played a 21 year old raw Bruce Mitchell, before he was an opener and a 41 year old Herbie Taylor. Please don’t make me laugh by trying to call Jock a good batsman.

He’s literally Voges. Not picked until he was in a late peak at FC level and even then only great performances vs minnows.

So Herbie was a good 5 years younger than him....

 

[Coronis]

So Herbie was a good 5 years younger than him....

His age has always been impressive but is irrelevant. Consider he had been playing FC cricket since 1909 and wasn’t picked until 1928.

 

[mr_mister]

mb lol I misread him as playing only 6 tests when looking at his English stats.

But, he played all 14 at home. Headley did score a ton against him. He played a 22 year old raw Bruce Mitchell, before he was a regular opener and a 42 year old Herbie Taylor. Please don’t make me laugh by trying to call Jock a good batsman.

He’s literally Voges. Not picked until he was in a late peak at FC level and even then only great performances vs minnows.

Hold up. Headley scored a ton against him, yes, but he also averaged 37 w/bat against Australia, well below his England ouput.

Ironmonger, averaging 14 w/ball against Windies, clearly came out on top in their battle. Which is no small thing.

In fact, since we're dealing with such small sample sizes, that series that Ironmonger and Headley played together was basically the difference between Headley averaging 60 and 70, which may have gave him the undisputed #2 spot after Bradman

 

[Coronis]

Hold up. Headley scored a ton against him, yes, but he also averaged 37 w/bat against Australia, well below his England ouput.

Ironmonger, averaging 14 w/ball against Windies, clearly came out on top in their battle. Which is no small thing.

So? One great batsman does not a good batting lineup make. It also doesn’t disguise that Ironmonger was no Headley or Pollock himself. He’s Voges minus a century and half a finger.

 

[mr_mister]

I guess when I see people want to bring up context with stats, it feels like it can just become a permanent one up job.

Graeme Pollock dealt with some pretty crappy test bowlers in his career. Look at the Aussie bowlers he pasted in the 60s.

The period between Davidson/Lindwall and Lillee/Thommo was barren for our fast bowlers

So is Pollock really that much better than Voges? Voges always had a solid FC record

 

[howitzer]

Why don’t we just compromise and have

Hobbs
Gilly
Bradman
Ashwin
Marshall
Warne
Garner
Holding
Roberts
O’Reilly
Murali

Not enough bowling options imo. Jadeja to come in for Hobbs

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not enough bowling options imo. Jadeja to come in for Hobbs

Improves the batting too

 

[Migara]

But 80s WI did have 3 or 4 great quicks to choose from at any one time. That actually happened.

This is on good fast bowling conditions. Not in the SC. You need all of them to be in peaks with bowling form as well as experience. It happened for WI few times but I don't think it was the norm.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This is on good fast bowling conditions. Not in the SC. You need all of them to be in peaks with bowling form as well as experience. It happened for WI few times but I don't think it was the norm.

Not really what I said but ok

 

[Migara]

Additionally the only spinners that's been proven effective or even dominant in non spinning conditions vs quality teams are Warne, Murali and O'Reilly. So I don't understand the argument

We are spoil because we saw two of them playing in the same time with few more with comparable quality. It was not the norm to have so many spinners that dominated.

 

[Slifer]

Aus won against a side that had Kumble + Harbhajan ( 2 very good spin bowlers ) . WI won against a Kapil and nobody . Plus the Indian side Aus beat had a very good home record. The Indian side that WI beat didn’t win 17 consecutive Test .

Sunilz, WI beat Pakistan in Pakistan in 1980 when they had Imran, Qadir and the much underrated orthodox spinner Iqbal Qasim. That's the last series Pakistan lost at home for 15 years.

As for your argument about needing spinners for Asia. WI simply didn't have any in their team because there wasn't one good enough. There certainly weren't any good enough to keep out any of the fast bowlers. Had even a Kumble level been available, they'd have probably played.

And WI not winning in India or Pakistan post '83 had absolutely nothing to do with the bowling. I already pointed out how the critical 2nd test in 1987 in India was washed out, otherwise WI would've won that test series 2-1. They would've also won in 1986 in Pakistan but for ... I'll say no more. In 3 series in Pakistan in 80, 86 and 90, the WI bowling kept Pakistan in check.

 

[Migara]

Ashwin is needed as an insurance policy in India in case Warne/Murali are having bad series again

Ashwin is probably the best bowler on dust bowls. He is definitely better than Murali or Warne on dust bowls. Perhaps Underwood and Jasubhai Patel may be his competitors. Warne and Murali are great because they kept the performance even on non spinning tracks.

 

[Sunil1z]

Sunilz, WI beat Pakistan in Pakistan in 1980 when they had Imran, Qadir and the much underrated orthodox spinner Iqbal Qasim. That's the last series Pakistan lost at home for 15 years.

As for your argument about needing spinners for Asia. WI simply didn't have any in their team because there wasn't one good enough. There certainly weren't any good enough to keep out any of the fast bowlers. Had even a Kumble level been available, they'd have probably played.

And WI not winning in India or Pakistan post '83 had absolutely nothing to do with the bowling. I already pointed out how the critical 2nd test in 1987 in India was washed out, otherwise WI would've won that test series 2-1. They would've also won in 1986 in Pakistan but for ... I'll say no more. In 3 series in Pakistan in 80, 86 and 90, the WI bowling kept Pakistan in check.

This thread wasn’t for you
You have many times credited Kumble/Ashwin in past
This thread is mainly for the fast bowling wankers who believe that one can make ATG team without having any spinners .

Let’s say in a Tendulkar vs Lara debate , some Indian poster posts lots of nonsense vs Lara , then that would annoy you too

 

[Slifer]

They haven’t won a Test series in Asia ( against IND, PAK , SL)since 1983 .
View attachment 39781

Their only 2 series victory came in Asia in 80s against Indian team which didn’t consist of any decent spinner and a good Pakistani side which had Qadir as the lone decent spinner . As soon as India got Hirwani ( he was 1 or 2 series wonder ) and Kumble ( ATVG spinner ) , WI failed to win series in IND . WI also struggled against Qadir in late 80s.

So was WI domination in 80s majorly due to absence of quality spinners in other side in 80s ?
How would they fare against good spin combos like Warne/Macgill , Ashwin/ Jadeja or Murali/ Herath ?

WI beat India in India in 1975 I believe with Prasana, Bedi and Chandra. They beat Pakistan in Pakistan with Qasim and Qadir. They murdered Underwood in England. None are on the Murali/Warne level but they're still very good spinners.

And unless I'm mistaken, 90s WI teams did in fact beat SL with Murali and Australia with Warne. Warne away in 92-93 and Murali at home in 1997. Later decade WI teams were done. Not even worth mentioning. My point, at the very least, WI would've still dominated at home, irrespective of the make up of the opposing bowling.

You should also ask, if instead of facing Roston Chase and Kraig Braithwaite in the Wi, what wouldve happened to Ashwin and co if they had to face Viv and Lloyd in the WI. WI now<<<India 80s; not even a debate.

WI failed to succeed later in the 80s because players retired, other teams got better, and 'other' circumstances.

 

[Sunil1z]

Ashwin is probably the best bowler on dust bowls. He is definitely better than Murali or Warne on dust bowls. Perhaps Underwood and Jasubhai Patel may be his competitors. Warne and Murali are great because they kept the performance even on non spinning tracks.

I believe pitches can easily neutralise finger spinners as compared to wrist spinners.
And Murali was more of wrist spinner than finger spinner . ( Hope I am not wrong)

 

[Slifer]

This thread wasn’t for you
You have many times credited Kumble/Ashwin in past
This thread is mainly for the fast bowling wankers who believe that one can make ATG team without having any spinners .

Let’s say in a Tendulkar vs Lara debate , some Indian poster posts lots of nonsense vs Lara , then that would annoy you too

Lara yeah, but not so much but Viv yeah I'd defend Viv no questions asked.

 

[Coronis]

WI beat India in India in 1975 I believe with Prasana, Bedi and Chandra. They beat Pakistan in Pakistan with Qasim and Qadir. They murdered Underwood in England. None are on the Murali/Warne level but they're still very good spinners.

And unless I'm mistaken, 90s WI teams did in fact beat SL with Murali and Australia with Warne. Warne away in 92-93 and Murali at home in 1997. Later decade WI teams were done. Not even worth mentioning. My point, at the very least, WI would've still dominated at home, irrespective of the make up of the opposing bowling.

You should also ask, if instead of facing Roston Chase and Kraig Braithwaite in the Wi, what wouldve happened to Ashwin and co if they had to face Viv and Lloyd in the WI. WI now<<<India 80s; not even a debate.

WI failed to succeed later in the 80s because players retired, other teams got better, and 'other' circumstances.

Not like they had a batting advantage too.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This thread wasn’t for you
You have many times credited Kumble/Ashwin in past
This thread is mainly for the fast bowling wankers who believe that one can make ATG team without having any spinners .

Let’s say in a Tendulkar vs Lara debate , some Indian poster posts lots of nonsense vs Lara , then that would annoy you too

Bro even if this is your motivation for making a thread, you don't admit it

 

[Sunil1z]

WI beat India in India in 1975 I believe with Prasana, Bedi and Chandra. They beat Pakistan in Pakistan with Qasim and Qadir. They murdered Underwood in England. None are on the Murali/Warne level but they're still very good spinners.

And unless I'm mistaken, 90s WI teams did in fact beat SL with Murali and Australia with Warne. Warne away in 92-93 and Murali at home in 1997. Later decade WI teams were done. Not even worth mentioning. My point, at the very least, WI would've still dominated at home, irrespective of the make up of the opposing bowling.

You should also ask, if instead of facing Roston Chase and Kraig Braithwaite in the Wi, what wouldve happened to Ashwin and co if they had to face Viv and Lloyd in the WI. WI now<<<India 80s; not even a debate.

WI failed to succeed later in the 80s because players retired, other teams got better, and 'other' circumstances.

WI had better batting than India too till 2001/02 . And no need to bring 1974/75 because WI didn’t have a pace quartet then .

Plus WI also had the best batting line up in 80 s. So I doubt you can attribute all the success to pace quartet .

 

[TheJediBrah]

Wi batting was awful around 1999/2000. It was just Lara and a bunch of hacks. Jimmy Adams had a Voges-like start and Chanders wasn't that good yet