Debate thread for 2024 ranking of bowlers poll

[Socerer 01]

Good for them.

why dont you cry about the Anderson Agenda i wonder

it even has decent alliteration like Ashwin Agenda

 

[Socerer 01]

There is a recency bias corollary to this so there's no correct way to go about this.

idk about this, you’re always told to temper your thoughts if you use any good recent performance as a + in a comparison

 

[CricAddict]

I was split between Verity and Laker honestly but someone mentioned Laker as being more pitch dependent.

Cummins is still a current bowler so I docked him. Verity a better rep than Walsh who is also below 4WPM.

But you have now rated Cummins ahead of Walsh and Laker. So, the docking has mysteriously disappeared now.

 

[Xix2565]

My polls would be better smh.

 

[ankitj]

Verity at #21 is a strange choice. We still have Walsh, Cummins, Laker, Grimmett etc. to go who should be comfortably ahead of Verity. Verity played, what, 40 tests, picking under 4 wpm and an SR of 77.xx

 

[subshakerz]

But you have now rated Cummins ahead of Walsh and Laker. So, the docking has mysteriously disappeared now.

I don't care about the order really in the three selected since they are counted individually.

 

[ataraxia]

Verity at #21 is a strange choice. We still have Walsh, Cummins, Laker, Grimmett etc. to go who should be comfortably ahead of Verity. Verity played, what, 40 tests, picking under 4 wpm and an SR of 77.xx

Didn't realise Verity's WPM was that bad tbh. There really is no excuse for the appalling Verity > Grimmett brigade on CW then

 

[CricAddict]

I don't care about the order really in the three selected since they are counted individually.

You did care about the order when I voted in the other poll though.

 

[subshakerz]

You did care about the order when I voted in the other poll though.

That was L&L who pointed that out and you confirmed you did so because you actually believe they are equal cricketers, not because you didn't care how they are ranked.

 

[Line and Length]

Didn't realise Verity's WPM was that bad tbh. There really is no excuse for the appalling Verity > Grimmett brigade on CW then

I was surprised at his ranking this poll. I had Laker before him, even though I rated him next spinner in line.

 

[ankitj]

I was surprised at his ranking this poll. I had Laker before him, even though I rated him next spinner in line.

What? Didn't you vote for Verity?

 

[centurymaker]

current players are subjected to incredible scrutiny for

failing to turn up not only in a series or even a test but even sessions that live long in memory because they’re so ****ing recent

when they have on paper stats like Rabada in Aus they’re rightly exposed as fraud series

hyperfocus on their tiniest failures

tax for benefitting from bowler friendly pitches

tax for not playing against the great behemoths of 20th century because cricket is the only sport that has evolved backwards

and now they also get **** on in advance because they’ll be **** eventually at a point

while older players

- dont get any black marks for any failures because those only exist as bad stats on paper and hey you can explain them away too

- tend to have nostalgia merchants who only remember their best moments and retain them with time because it takes them back to their favourite cricket moments

- benefit from favourable checklist analysis. have a sketchy record against strong opposition or an absent record in some places? well dont worry, we can always make favourable assumptions for you to say how you would have rolled over everyone because you are O L D and O L D is G O L D

- boost from playing against 20th century behemoths

Word for word

 

[Line and Length]

What? Didn't you vote for Verity?

I gave top vote to Laker then Verity.

 

[Coronis]

It's not absurd at all. He was in the top ten pacers list we did before and has super high peer rating.

I never said it was absurd. That was calling out someone else who claimed it was absurdly low, which its not.

Am I supposed to blindly believe the opinion of a handful of stats nerds on CW over the widespread opinion of the cricketing community as well as my own on Wasim Akram?

If all former cricketers were to vote today, Wasim Akram would turn out to be in the top 3 fast bowlers of all time. He is at worst top 6 or top 7.

Here's cricinfo's all time xi-

The World XI: Jack Hobbs, Len Hutton, Don Bradman, Sachin Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Garry Sobers, Adam Gilchrist, Malcolm Marshall, Shane Warne, Wasim Akram, Dennis Lillee


Jury -The jury comprised one former captain from each of the top Test-playing teams - Ian Chappell, Clive Lloyd, Tony Greig, Duleep Mendis, Ali Bacher, Intikhab Alam, John Wright, Ajit Wadekar - and four cricket historians and writers.

Believe whatever you want to believe. Don’t needlessly insult people who aren’t doing any harm because they don’t share your beliefs.

At the moment, Ashwin is probably outside the top 20 bowlers of all time. But so is Mr subshakerz Verity. If he had voted Laker, I may have understood as Laker >> Verity.

I too believe Laker > Verity. However I’m not whinging like a child who lost a toy.

Verity at #21 is a strange choice. We still have Walsh, Cummins, Laker, Grimmett etc. to go who should be comfortably ahead of Verity. Verity played, what, 40 tests, picking under 4 wpm and an SR of 77.xx

Didn't realise Verity's WPM was that bad tbh. There really is no excuse for the appalling Verity > Grimmett brigade on CW then

I recently posted a comparison thread between Grimmett and Verity. The vote turned out 13 vs 3 in favour of Verity.

Grimmett vs England 22 matches 106 @ 32.44 11 5’fers
Verity vs Australia 18 matches 59 @ 28.06 3 5’fers

Whilst Grum was the main bowler for Australia for the majority of his career - or bowling in tandem with O’Reilly, and was clearly also better at running through weaker teams, the general opinion seemed to be that Verity was superior, Verity in contrast played as part of a stronger attack and thus had to bowl far less (25.5 overs per innings vs 36 overs per innings), and had less opportunity for wickets.

People think this was more valuable (personally I disagree, and have Grimmett > Verity).

I see where the arguments come from though, and I’m personally not going to begrudge anyone who votes Grimmett, Verity, Tayfield, Laker or Ashwin in any order.

 

[subshakerz]

I never said it was absurd. That was calling out someone else who claimed it was absurdly low, which its not.

Sorry yeah that was my bad.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Wasim Akram at No.11 is absurd.

One one hand some of you are claiming that stats matter and that Akram couldn't quite get it done to the same extent as others like Hadlee etc (mostly due to Pakistan's atrocious fielding)

While on the other hand, a number of you have picked Verity who only took 3.6 wickets per match as a spinner and that too at a high SR of 77.6.

He's been picked ahead of better spinners and countless better fast bowlers.. I stopped taking this exercise seriously very early on and started ignoring it and I have come back only to find it's only got worse.

You keep voting and keep justifying stats in one case and ignore stats in other cases as per your convenience.

Verity bowled to the goatest of sporting goats and did very well. He was an absolute gun.

 

[ataraxia]

Verity bowled to the goatest of sporting goats and did very well. He was an absolute gun.

Same for Grimmett.

Surprised there haven’t been more Jadeja votes

I hope you are proud of me.

 

[CricAddict]

Verity bowled to the goatest of sporting goats and did very well. He was an absolute gun.

Sachin was Cronje's bunny. We don't rate Cronje as a bowler though.

 

[CricAddict]

Rating Cummins ahead of Ashwin makes some sense though I personally differ with it. But I am quite surprised that there are many voters for Bumrah ahead of Ashwin in the poll when Bumrah hasn't played half the matches of Ashwin and less than half the wickets as well. There is no Ashwin agenda here since both are my countrymen but I am quite surprised on some of the votes. Anyways, to each his own. I will leave it here.

 

[subshakerz]

Rating Cummins ahead of Ashwin makes some sense though I personally differ with it. But I am quite surprised that there are many voters for Bumrah ahead of Ashwin in the poll when Bumrah hasn't played half the matches of Ashwin and less than half the wickets as well. There is no Ashwin agenda here since both are my countrymen but I am quite surprised on some of the votes. Anyways, to each his own. I will leave it here.

Yeah Bumrah doesn't belong there.