Who wins in these ATG XI battles

[Slifer]

Hunte
Greenidge
Viv
Lara
Headly
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Holding
Roberts
Garner

Simpson
Trumper
Ponting
G Chappell
S Waugh
Border
Gilchrist
Warne
Lindwall
Lillee
McGrath

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Root
Barrington
Botham
Barnes
Verity
Trueman
Underwood

Australia could realistically include Benaud, Davidson, Miller and Lindwall and having batting depth more so than the WI and England, without sacrificing much in their bowling strength. Australia has unparalleled depth and quality. Sorry no other team quite matches that Bradman or not.

 

[subshakerz]

See, in theory this is what an English XI should look like.

In practice though, you’re sacrificing your biggest strength (especially in this direct comparison - your batting depth) for an extra bowler who is nowhere near the level of any of SA’s attack.

Whether we choose to include Procter or not, the attack is going to have at least 3 ATG pacers + Tayfield.

At best England can have 2 ATG pacers (if we consider Barnes pace) + Laker, and a borderline guy clearly a tier below SA’s worst option

It may seem heretical but what does Botham add in the side? I get that maybe he can be a wildcard player but you're right, much more preferable having both Compton and Barrington.

Similar logic for WI not including Gibbs and keeping a four man pace attack.

 

[subshakerz]

Australia could realistically include Benaud, Davidson, Miller and Lindwall and having batting depth more so than the WI and England, without sacrificing much in their bowling strength. Australia has unparalleled depth and quality. Sorry no other team quite matches that Bradman or not.

Nah that's a big hit on top drawer bowling quality.

 

[Jumno]

South Africa

De Kock
Smith
De Villiars
G Pollock
B Richards
Kallis
Proctor
Pollock
Adams
Steyn
Donald

Batting and bowling depth

 

[subshakerz]

South Africa

De Kock
Smith
De Villiars
G Pollock
B Richards
Kallis
Proctor
Pollock
Adams
Steyn
Donald

Batting and bowling depth

Richards is an opener.

Adams?

 

[Coronis]

It may seem heretical but what does Botham add in the side? I get that maybe he can be a wildcard player but you're right, much more preferable having both Compton and Barrington.

Similar logic for WI not including Gibbs and keeping a four man pace attack.

Are you advocating for Gibbs or for excluding him?

Well thats why I wouldn’t have him and still have 4 other bowlers. Its similar to Miller in that sense. In the case of Botham, I’d only have him in over Anderson, he obviously gives more of an “X factor” that could win you a match you otherwise wouldn’t, but Anderson has consistency. He also has that X factor with the bat as well and strengthens the tail but that comes into it less for me.

I feel some of it may stem from the perception of “how can you have an England XI and not
include Botham?!” rather than whats actually the best team. This is also true for other players and other countries.

 

[subshakerz]

Are you advocating for Gibbs or for excluding him?

Well thats why I wouldn’t have him and still have 4 other bowlers. Its similar to Miller in that sense. In the case of Botham, I’d only have him in over Anderson, he obviously gives more of an “X factor” that could win you a match you otherwise wouldn’t, but Anderson has consistency. He also has that X factor with the bat as well and strengthens the tail but that comes into it less for me.

I feel some of it may stem from the perception of “how can you have an England XI and not
include Botham?!” rather than whats actually the best team. This is also true for other players and other countries.

Excluding Gibbs frankly. But I go back and forth.

 

[howitzer]

Excluding Gibbs frankly. But I go back and forth.

Therein lies the rub. Australia having a truly great spinner for balance and Gilchrist does it for me. I don't think Marshall, Ambrose and Garner/Holding is really any better than McGrath, Lillee and Davidson/Lindwall. I think that Greenidge is stronger than Australia's best opener to the same degree that their second best opener is stronger than Hunte so that's a tie. Without Bradman Windies clearly win the middle order but I don't think it's by that much and Warne and Gilchrist swing to Australia for me.

 

[subshakerz]

Therein lies the rub. Australia having a truly great spinner for balance and Gilchrist does it for me. I don't think Marshall, Ambrose and Garner/Holding is really any better than McGrath, Lillee and Davidson/Lindwall. I think that Greenidge is stronger than Australia's best opener to the same degree that their second best opener is stronger than Hunte so that's a tie. Without Bradman Windies clearly win the middle order but I don't think it's by that much and Warne and Gilchrist swing to Australia for me.

Yeah but let's say instead of Gibbs they have Garner?

 

[howitzer]

Yeah but let's say instead of Gibbs they have Garner?

Then they don't have balance.

 

[subshakerz]

Then they don't have balance.

They would be repeating their formula from their 80s side, and have Sobers for spin long yards.

 

[howitzer]

They would be repeating their formula from their 80s side, and have Sobers for spin long yards.

They were playing against regular sides, rather than ATG sides then though. They would need the spinner against another ATG side.

 

[howitzer]

They were playing against regular sides, rather than ATG sides then though. They would need the spinner against another ATG side.

And even then they payed Harper a good bit.

 

[subshakerz]

They were playing against regular sides, rather than ATG sides then though. They would need the spinner against another ATG side.

Yeah but I would wager unless it's a rank turner, having the pace quartet is better than allowing any non ATG level spinner in the attack. Just a drop down in quality. Though.one can argue that three top pacers is sufficient.

 

[Slifer]

Nah that's a big hit on top drawer bowling quality.

Ok so Australia can mix it up:

Lindwall
Davidson
O'reilly
Lillee


Miller
Cummins
Warne
Mcgrath

Two potent attacks imo...

 

[Coronis]

They would be repeating their formula from their 80s side, and have Sobers for spin long yards.

Anf their 80’s side never faced other ATG level squads, or quality spinners. They wouldn’t be playing Qadir and Emburey.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I'd fancy this England side (lacks a specialist 5/6 and a left handed bat and a bit slow scoring but is quality). Obviously Botham and Knott are major exclusions. Hammond and Root are good 5th and 6th options.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Root
Ames wk
Verity
Trueman
Barnes
Anderson

 

[Coronis]

I'd fancy this England side (lacks a specialist 5/6 and a left handed bat and a bit slow scoring but is quality). Obviously Botham and Knott are major exclusions. Hammond and Root are good 5th and 6th options.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Root
Ames wk
Verity
Trueman
Barnes
Anderson

I’ll take Knott and Laker personally but quality.

 

[Jumno]

A middle order of Ponting, G Chappell, S Waugh, Border and Gilly should grind it out from the WI bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

Anf their 80’s side never faced other ATG level squads, or quality spinners. They wouldn’t be playing Qadir and Emburey.

And which ATG level squads did Australia face? They didn't hit their peak till Donald, Ambrose, Wasim either retired of declined. Balance is great but Warne wasn't this miraculous asset vs Lara and India, same with Murali vs Australia, Sachin, Lara.

What made the WI inevitable was the never ceasing, unrelenting attack from 2 ATG, and 2 great vast bowlers. Saw estimates that Sober's orthodox spin averaged 28ish, I'll take that. Rank turners, I'll take Gibbs, but remember what the did on the flattest / slowest of pitches in India '83, and with Lillee and McGrath they aren't bringing out those.

Hayden
Simpson
Bradman
Smith
Chappell
Ponting / Border
Gilchrist
Cummins / Lindwall / O'Reilly
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

Greenidge
Worrell
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon / Walcott
Marshall
Holding / Gibbs
Garner
Ambrose

Anyone who wants to tell me that either of those squads are getting dominated needs to read up on the sport.