Pakistan early 1990s vs Kohli’s India

[PaulLennon]

Pakistan is not winning in India and I doubt India is winning in Pakistan. But I can see India losing by single test or drawing in Pakistan. Pakistan ain't doing the same in India

2018-19 india (the one that won bgt) is winning both. bumrah and pant both had matured plus the middle order trio were still in good nick. bumrah got injured a few months later and post covid the trio lost form/were old.

 

[PaulLennon]

I'd say that this is the strongest Indian batting lineup that bumrah has played with since 2019.

This sort of consistency had been missing from Indian batting for a long time. Post covid India has done well but that is mostly due to bowling + lower order rescue (pant/jadeja/axar mostly, bumrah-shami at lord's, shardul at oval, shardul/sundar at gabba) + occasional contribution from the oldies.

back in the 15-19 run the lower order didn't even need to contribute to india's wins. the top order killed the game (especially at home/asia).

 

[Slifer]

2018-19 india (the one that won bgt) is winning both. bumrah and pant both had matured plus the middle order trio were still in good nick. bumrah got injured a few months later and post covid the trio lost form/were old.

Unlikely to win in Pakistan. India looks good on paper but I doubt the batting lineup is holding up to Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq at home. Bumrah should do well but I'm not expecting much from the other bowlers honestly. Pakistan won't destroy India or anything like that but I can envision a draw.

 

[GirthQuake]

Unlikely to win in Pakistan. India looks good on paper but I doubt the batting lineup is holding up to Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq at home. Bumrah should do well but I'm not expecting much from the other bowlers honestly. Pakistan won't destroy India or anything like that but I can envision a draw.

Walk us through the reasoning that had you arrive at that conclusion? Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq could barely make a dent in one of the weakest post Sunny line-up that toured in 1989. Sachin was a raw 16 year old. Manjrekar had the outlier series of a lifetime. But it was still a rickety Indian line up and yet, Pakistan failed to knock them over.

But somehow the Indian line-up with Pant, Pujara, Kohli, Gill would not stand up to them because?

 

[Xix2565]

Walk us through the reasoning that had you arrive at that conclusion? Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq could barely make a dent in one of the weakest post Sunny line-up that toured in 1989. Sachin was a raw 16 year old. Manjrekar had the outlier series of a lifetime. But it was still a rickety Indian line up and yet, Pakistan failed to knock them over.

But somehow the Indian line-up with Pant, Pujara, Kohli, Gill would not stand up to them because?

Clearly they wouldn't rig the pitches in this case, don't you get it?

 

[Spark]

I'd say that this is the strongest Indian batting lineup that bumrah has played with since 2019.

This sort of consistency had been missing from Indian batting for a long time. Post covid India has done well but that is mostly due to bowling + lower order rescue (pant/jadeja/axar mostly, bumrah-shami at lord's, shardul at oval, shardul/sundar at gabba) + occasional contribution from the oldies.

back in the 15-19 run the lower order didn't even need to contribute to india's wins. the top order killed the game (especially at home/asia).

Look they're promising but literally all they've done is bat to standard - not out of this world, but to standard - against an attack whose spin component is more suited to a U23 development squad than a Test match and is probably weaker than some Ranji attacks they face from week to week. Let's hold fire on some of the judgments here.

 

[Slifer]

Walk us through the reasoning that had you arrive at that conclusion? Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq could barely make a dent in one of the weakest post Sunny line-up that toured in 1989. Sachin was a raw 16 year old. Manjrekar had the outlier series of a lifetime. But it was still a rickety Indian line up and yet, Pakistan failed to knock them over.

But somehow the Indian line-up with Pant, Pujara, Kohli, Gill would not stand up to them because?

And Kohli's teams have toured NZ and RSA with what level of success? None. And South Africa especially have had pathetic batting line-ups. Now pitches in those two countries are completely different from Pakistan but Pakistan's bowling was still a class apart.

Notice at the end, I did say a draw is the most likely outcome imo. Australia with a decent team lost there in 1994. If you think India are just going to waltz into Pakistan and beat them no questions asked, then you're delusional.

Say what you want about Pakistan but the last thing they'd endure is a loss at home to India. Even if that meant preparing roads, which is why I said a draw is most likely.

 

[subshakerz]

When you look at at the talent and skill of the 80/ / 90s Pakistan teams, it’s evident how much they underperformed (which is of course the stereotype).

That team should have won every home series from 1978 to 2003. The fact they couldn’t outs India’s current achievement in context.

Don't conflate the 80s and 90s team. Pakistan was undefeated at home from 1980 to 1995, and then promptly lost to SL, SA, Zimbabwe, Australia and England in the next five years.

 

[subshakerz]

Walk us through the reasoning that had you arrive at that conclusion? Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq could barely make a dent in one of the weakest post Sunny line-up that toured in 1989. Sachin was a raw 16 year old. Manjrekar had the outlier series of a lifetime. But it was still a rickety Indian line up and yet, Pakistan failed to knock them over.

But somehow the Indian line-up with Pant, Pujara, Kohli, Gill would not stand up to them because?

Unfortunately Pak-Ind series have a bipartisan record of safe dull pitch series with the odd lively decider. Certainly the case with 86/87, 89, 2006 and 2007 series.

 

[subshakerz]

And Kohli's teams have toured NZ and RSA with what level of success? None. And South Africa especially have had pathetic batting line-ups. Now pitches in those two countries are completely different from Pakistan but Pakistan's bowling was still a class apart.

Notice at the end, I did say a draw is the most likely outcome imo. Australia with a decent team lost there in 1994. If you think India are just going to waltz into Pakistan and beat them no questions asked, then you're delusional.

Say what you want about Pakistan but the last thing they'd endure is a loss at home to India. Even if that meant preparing roads, which is why I said a draw is most likely.

The 90s Pak team was actually a better touring side than at home. But you are right, they are likely to prepare concrete slabs at home.

 

[ma1978]

Don't conflate the 80s and 90s team. Pakistan was undefeated at home from 1980 to 1995, and then promptly lost to SL, SA, Zimbabwe, Australia and England in the next five years.

it was all the draws. Should have won a lot more with that talent.

It was a great team, starting with Majid and Zaheer and then peak Imran and Javed and then the Ws, Inzamam, Anwar etc.

As an a India fan back then they were highly intimidating, more in some ways than the Windies because 1983.

 

[Migara]

yes but in Indian conditions, you can argue that the Pakistani team is better suited than even the ATG Aus and WI teams. I haven’t voted because I’m not sure yet

And you have to remember that Pakistan still had players that ended careers of Indian spin quartet. That Pakistani team was as good as anything gathered on the planet on playing spin. The 90s Pakistan would have had a top of the performance Wasim and Waqar. Imran was done by then. Qadir was non existent against India. So the spin cupboard is empty for them. Bumrah, Shami and Siraj IMO is almost as good Wasim, Waqar and Aaqib. Batting also very close. So I would say still India of today.

 

[Migara]

Ashwin Jadeja are the best combo in India, especially complemented by Bumrah, Shami and Kuldeep

True, how ever, Anwar, Sohail, Miandad, Imram, Ijaz and Malik are the best to tour in Indian conditions too. And unlike many touring faster bowlers, Akram and Younis are made for the Indian conditions. Not to mention Aaqib Javed too.

 

[Migara]

Walk us through the reasoning that had you arrive at that conclusion? Waqar, Wasim and Mustaq could barely make a dent in one of the weakest post Sunny line-up that toured in 1989. Sachin was a raw 16 year old. Manjrekar had the outlier series of a lifetime. But it was still a rickety Indian line up and yet, Pakistan failed to knock them over.

But somehow the Indian line-up with Pant, Pujara, Kohli, Gill would not stand up to them because?

Imran done, Waqar's debut, Qadir done, Mushtaq's debut. Don't sound like the best Pakistani side that toured. Infact by 1990-91 they were much better with Waqar and Aaqib Javed becoming mature bowlers, despite Wasim losing his blistering pace.

 

[subshakerz]

And you have to remember that Pakistan still had players that ended careers of Indian spin quartet. That Pakistani team was as good as anything gathered on the planet on playing spin. The 90s Pakistan would have had a top of the performance Wasim and Waqar. Imran was done by then. Qadir was non existent against India. So the spin cupboard is empty for them. Bumrah, Shami and Siraj IMO is almost as good Wasim, Waqar and Aaqib. Batting also very close. So I would say still India of today.

Maybe you forgot Saqlain Mushtaq and Mushtaq Ahmed.

 

[Migara]

Maybe you forgot Saqlain Mushtaq and Mushtaq Ahmed.

Don't think they were early 90s. By the time they became forces, Akeam had slowed down due to diabetes and Waqar due to stress fractures. Although in combination they were a better attack, Indians do play spin much better. That only happened in early 90s with Pakistan with Wasim, Waqar and Aaqib all at peak.

 

[GirthQuake]

Imran done, Waqar's debut, Qadir done, Mushtaq's debut. Don't sound like the best Pakistani side that toured. Infact by 1990-91 they were much better with Waqar and Aaqib Javed becoming mature bowlers, despite Wasim losing his blistering pace.

Struggling to see what Qadir done means here given he averaged over 50 against India when he was medium-rare. A nothingburger of a bowler.

Yes, Imran was at the fag end. Wasim at his peak perhaps. Will only snort at the attempt to present Aquib as a kind of decisive bowler.

Still, on balance that was a superlative pakistan squad by their standards and recent run compared to India. There's no equivalence.

The larger point of this thread is still laughable. That Kohli's India that played one of Australia's most formidable attacks on their grounds and won - twice - would somehow struggle against *any* pakistan team of 1990s.

They'd be blanked 5-zip.

 

[GirthQuake]

And Kohli's teams have toured NZ and RSA with what level of success? None. And South Africa especially have had pathetic batting line-ups. Now pitches in those two countries are completely different from Pakistan but Pakistan's bowling was still a class apart.

Notice at the end, I did say a draw is the most likely outcome imo. Australia with a decent team lost there in 1994. If you think India are just going to waltz into Pakistan and beat them no questions asked, then you're delusional.

Say what you want about Pakistan but the last thing they'd endure is a loss at home to India. Even if that meant preparing roads, which is why I said a draw is most likely.

What has Kohli's India results in RSA and NZ got to do with how they'd fare - theoretically - against that Pakistan team? That Pakistan team struggled to bowl out a rickety Indian batting line up. They'd be obliterated by a peak Kohli's India. That Pakistan team used to huff and puff against *that* Indian bowling line-up. Watching them face Bumrah and co would be Brutal and funny in equal measure. Thanks, but this is a no contest.

 

[Socerer 01]

we should have this guy as our version of @Burgey

 

[Slifer]

What has Kohli's India results in RSA and NZ got to do with how they'd fare - theoretically - against that Pakistan team? That Pakistan team struggled to bowl out a rickety Indian batting line up. They'd be obliterated by a peak Kohli's India. That Pakistan team used to huff and puff against *that* Indian bowling line-up. Watching them face Bumrah and co would be Brutal and funny in equal measure. Thanks, but this is a no contest.

Focus. Kohli’s team isn't obliterating Pakistan IN Pakistan and particularly the early 90s version. The point about NZ and RSA is that early 90s Pakistan had even better bowling than both. The best Kohli’s team can hope for in Pakistan is a draw.