Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[capt_Luffy]

And I agreed with you, it's possible neither are. My views aren't inflexible.

But you can't use this argument to suggest that both are while highlighting a huge obvious flaw.

I see. But I was not arguing for Ashwin's ATG status really; the criteria you and Subs have for ATG, if I had similar he wouldn't had been an ATG even in my book. I was just calling out Subs on his discrepancy.

 

[kyear2]

None of them had better alternatives to taking wickets though. Who's the better player suited to SC conditions that they played with?

You making the argument against your point though. If you're an ATG, the man, there are no better options than you. If outside of your comfort zone there are better options than you how can you tell me you're an ATG up there with Warne and Murali. Who on that Indian team would have replaced
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee in India? When Maco went to India in '83 the pitches were the definition of flat and he knocked the bat out of Sunny's hand. They great ones adapt and aren't displaced by anyone in their prime. McGill complemented Warne, not replaced him.

 

[Shady Slim]

as if this racked up forty pages in under a week wtf
especially when the answer is obviously yes

 

[honestbharani]

I see. But I was not arguing for Ashwin's ATG status really; the criteria you and Subs have for ATG, if I had similar he wouldn't had been an ATG even in my book. I was just calling out Subs on his discrepancy.

Subs' "criteria" really is as simple as looking at a players' nationality though...

 

[kyear2]

I respect your opinion. But I also think of the ATG list as sort of a hall of fame and feel bad to leave out servants like Border and Anderson of that tier. Yes, Border is no Viv or Anderson is no Steyn; but doesn't mean, to me, that they can't be ATG in thier own right. I think we can differ here freely. As for Ashwin's ATG status, I think on having a substitute like Jadeja, a significantly superior bat, field and technically more effective against right arm heavy sides; I can see why they would make that decision. You need 3 pacers atleast almost everywhere and will go with less only you lack much skilled ones or have much superior spinners; the same doesn't apply to spinners. If Warne, Murali and Jadeja played together, I can see times when one might be dropped; and some rare ones where it might even be one of those two.

Don't get me wrong, in a hall of Fame scenario they make it, but even in those scenarios there are layers to this. There are the first ballot unanimous guys, then there's the 3rd ballot guys who barely scrape in. The term All Time Great means you transcended the sport, you're the fist ballot HOF guys, the top tier of what the sport has to offer. Anderson are none of this things, he played for a really long time and improved over time, but he's extremely conditions dependant and can be toothless when he doesn't have them. That's not nearly how I look at guys with that tag. It's like Curtis Martin vs Barry Sanders, because you have more years because you played a long ass time doesn't mean I mention you both in the same breath.

To your last point, if Shane Warne played with Jadeja, Jadeja would have been relegated to McGill status. He would be the one who payed when conditions suited two spinners not the other way round, that's my point. You can't be the guy, who gets replaced by a guy that's equally poor outside of the SC. We're skipping that point.

In 10 matches in Australia he averages 42 with a s/r in Sobers territory. In 7 matches in England he averages 28, in South Africa an average of almost 50 and a strike rate of over 110.

If as a spinner you're only great in conditions where the opposing team are forced to play 3 spinners, and have those numbers abroad, then I can't see the argument for being an ATG. That's what we kill Weekes and Walcott for, and btw using them as not to pick on players of any other nationality than my own.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

40 pages well done guys

 

[capt_Luffy]

Don't get me wrong, in a hall of Fame scenario they make it, but even in those scenarios there are layers to this. There are the first ballot unanimous guys, then there's the 3rd ballot guys who barely scrape in. The term All Time Great means you transcended the sport, you're the fist ballot HOF guys, the top tier of what the sport has to offer. Anderson are none of this things, he played for a really long time and improved over time, but he's extremely conditions dependant and can be toothless when he doesn't have them. That's not nearly how I look at guys with that tag. It's like Curtis Martin vs Barry Sanders, because you have more years because you played a long ass time doesn't mean I mention you both in the same breath.

To your last point, if Shane Warne played with Jadeja, Jadeja would have been relegated to McGill status. He would be the one who payed when conditions suited two spinners not the other way round, that's my point. You can't be the guy, who gets replaced by a guy that's equally poor outside of the SC. We're skipping that point.

In 10 matches in Australia he averages 42 with a s/r in Sobers territory. In 7 matches in England he averages 28, in South Africa an average of almost 50 and a strike rate of over 110.

If as a spinner you're only great in conditions where the opposing team are forced to play 3 spinners, and have those numbers abroad, then I can't see the argument for being an ATG. That's what we kill Weekes and Walcott for, and btw using them as not to pick on players of any other nationality than my own.

If you only want to keep the first tier guys, then sure. But no more than 9 players makes that list for me. I think we fundamentally differ on what an ATG should be and I think we agree to disagree on that.
And I think you are doing a disservice by just looking at Ashwin's averages in Australia; he was extremely out of depth in his first tour way back in 2011, and was genuinely a key player in the last two BGT wins, especially the last. As for Jadeja, his record is only bad in England and NZ; for the opportunities he got, he has delivered some good numbers in Australia and South Africa. And what I meant was that, I will not necessarily bench Warne for Jadeja, but can see places where the management can think it to be a better option; given adequate pacer support, not having Lee or Fleming. Oh, btw; Weekes and Walcott are ATGs for me.

 

[Xix2565]

You making the argument against your point though. If you're an ATG, the man, there are no better options than you. If outside of your comfort zone there are better options than you how can you tell me you're an ATG up there with Warne and Murali. Who on that Indian team would have replaced
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee in India? When Maco went to India in '83 the pitches were the definition of flat and he knocked the bat out of Sunny's hand. They great ones adapt and aren't displaced by anyone in their prime. McGill complemented Warne, not replaced him.

If it's that strict then people like O'Reilly shouldn't be ATG per your list. Wasn't like he was put that much outside of his comfort zone.

Which Indian team are you discussing here? If it's the worse ones they faced then none, because India was weaker then. Otherwise I don't mind making a case for Ashwin over all 3 even on the conditions they faced.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Note : Warne got dropped for Colin Miller on a tour to WI .

 

[Xix2565]

Note : Warne got dropped for Colin Miller on a tour to WI .

And here I thought ATGs should always be first options regardless.

 

[OverratedSanity]

To your last point, if Shane Warne played with Jadeja, Jadeja would have been relegated to McGill status. He would be the one who payed when conditions suited two spinners not the other way round, that's my point.

I literally don't think this is true by the way. I'm extremely confident India's team management would pick Jadeja over Warne in the last 5 years or so. India's main weakness has been their poor middle order and Jadeja even if he can be iffy overseas has papered over those cracks by getting vital lower middle order runs. This is why jadeja is an auto pick everywhere, and they'd do the same even if Warne was a available.

Now, you can argue they'd be wrong to do so (I'd agree) , but that's not the point. The selectors have been trying to bandaid the brittle middle order and Warne, just like ashwin, would be a casualty because of this mindset despite obviously being a much better bowler than ashwin and Jadeja.

 

[subshakerz]

dude the personal insults by your own admission are from Xix and only him while others have been respectful with you. they arent cool regardless and its unfair you kept copping them. you’ve also indulged in mudslinging and accusing the others of nationalism, bias and worse things, the nationalism bit alone got a couple of newbies bans around world cup time and conveniently some of the users are ignoring it

Haha so now I have to apologies for accusing others of being nationally biased? Isn't that the whole meme about me here?

 

[subshakerz]

I literally don't think this is true by the way. I'm extremely confident India's team management would pick Jadeja over Warne in the last 5 years or so. India's main weakness has been their poor middle order and Jadeja even if he can be iffy overseas has papered over those cracks by getting vital lower middle order runs. This is why jadeja is an auto pick everywhere, and they'd do the same even if Warne was a available.

Now, you can argue they'd be wrong to do so (I'd agree) , but that's not the point. The selectors have been trying to bandaid the brittle middle order and Warne, just like ashwin, would be a casualty because of this mindset despite obviously being a much better bowler than ashwin and Jadeja.

No way Jadeja gets picked over a matchwinner like Warne anywhere, particularly SENA. In SC, both would play. Indian management can't be that dense. This is such an odd take.

 

[Xix2565]

No way Jadeja gets picked over a matchwinner like Warne anywhere, particularly SENA. In SC, both would play. Indian management can't be that dense. This is such an odd take.

I mean if the pacers are good enough he probably would no? Warne playing in a time where bowling attacks weren't as deep doesn't change the modern context. You'd know this if you paid attention tbh rather than worry about how this means X players will never be ATGs.

 

[subshakerz]

There are 12 test nations. Ash has not had the opportunity to play in 4 of them.

Of the 8 he has had the opportunity to play in (as in, his team toured/played there when he was available), he is ATG in Ind, SL, BD,Windies. That is 4.

He has outbowled the opposition spinner in Aus, and has had very good returns in England. He has poor records only in NZ and RSA and even there, he has had very good performances in RSA. I think he only played 1 or 2 tests in NZ. So I dont see how anyone can refute his being an ATG esp. as a spinner where there are so few options to that tier.

Averages 42 in Australia and takes 2 wickets a test in England. Well below ATG standards.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Yea love Jadeja but no one is picking him over Warne unless they’re tryna lose

They can pick Jadeja over Siraj or Thakur instead

 

[subshakerz]

I mean if the pacers are good enough he probably would no? Warne playing in a time where bowling attacks weren't as deep doesn't change the modern context. You'd know this if you paid attention tbh rather than worry about how this means X players will never be ATGs.

You realise that Warne was playing with McGrath and Gillespie and that still didn't stop him from winning game and taking big series hauls in most countries?

 

[OverratedSanity]

No way Jadeja gets picked over a matchwinner like Warne anywhere, particularly SENA. In SC, both would play. Indian management can't be that dense. This is such an odd take.

But I'm telling you as someone who has supported the team and been frustrated by their selections, that's literally how they've approached team composition. If it came down to a 1v1 between Jadeja and Warne, they're picking the guy who gives them extra batting because the actual specialist batsmen suck. It's why shardul got games ahead of our other specialist quicks.

It may be obviously wrong, but I'm telling you that's how they think and I don't see it changing with Warne who doesn't provide any real batting either.

 

[Xix2565]

Averages 42 in Australia and takes 2 wickets a test in England. Well below ATG standards.

Doesn't change his point.

You realise that Warne was playing with McGrath and Gillespie and that still didn't stop him from winning game and taking big series hauls in most countries?

Warne had better bowling depth on his side yes. But OS was talking about the case for the current Indian side. Pay attention please.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yea love Jadeja but no one is picking him over Warne unless they’re tryna lose

It would be wrong. But that's what they'd do.