Ravichandran Ashwin vs Nathan Lyon

[ma1978]

If Lyon was born in India he would be a completely different bowler with a totally different type of bowling. Much of the problem with Lyon's record in India and SL is a product of not understanding how to bowl on those pitches, which is why his record has improved with time.

You guys can’t rely on hypotheticals. The reality is the totality of Ashwin’s work is better than the totality of Lyon’s work. That takes nothing away from Lyon, who is one hell of a cricketer.

 

[Xix2565]

I think you are overvaluing SC performance implicitly because it's just a big part of Ashwin's career and not analyzing the 25 tests in SENA critically, but we can disagree.

I don't see why SC performance is being overvalued, it's a big part of the Test world. The reverse could be said about you, with SENA and SC swapped.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think you are overvaluing SC performance implicitly because it's just a big part of Ashwin's career and not analyzing the 25 tests in SENA critically, but we can disagree.

And I think you're devaluing their differences in SC and overhyping Lyon's superiority in SENA (which isn't nearly as much as you say). But sure, let's disagree on that.

 

[subshakerz]

Ashwin averaged under 24, Lyon averages over 30 playing in the same era. No amount of contorting stats will change that.

I think we are educated enough to not take things at face value.

 

[Spark]

You guys can’t rely on hypotheticals. The reality is the totality of Ashwin’s work is better than the totality of Lyon’s work. That takes nothing away from Lyon, who is one hell of a cricketer.

How is it a hypothetical to state that "if Lyon had grown up bowling on Indian pitches he would bowl differently". That's about as obvious a statement as you can get.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How is it a hypothetical to state that "if Lyon had grown up bowling on Indian pitches he would bowl differently". That's about as obvious a statement as you can get.

Yeah, but wouldn't so had Ashwin? I can totally see Ashwin with his height and variations to be more suited for SENA than someone like Lyon, had he grew up there.

 

[Spark]

I'm not even trying to argue Lyon is equal or even better than Ashwin, frankly I don't care. But it's my strong belief that this forum really underrates Lyon for really dumb superficial stats reason, specifically because it's not appreciated just how remarkable it is what Lyon is able to do on these truly horrendous pitches for finger spin bowlers not named Lyon. Virtually every other spinner who has come down here has gotten absolutely belted to almost comical degrees at one point or another, including Ashwin. Keshav Maharaj, another spinner with a seemingly comparable pedigree to Lyon who could in theory be well suited to Australian pitches was a complete joke last summer.

 

[subshakerz]

And I think you're devaluing their differences in SC and overhyping Lyon's superiority in SENA (which isn't nearly as much as you say). But sure, let's disagree on that.

Because we have a fundamental difference in how we evaluate bowlers.

My experience watching cricket since the 90s is that regular good spinners, not ATGs, are expected to be a threat factor in almost every test in the SC.

But in SENA, it's more about just holding one end relatively tight and then when conditions are right on a 4th or 5th day pitch to run through a batting lineup with 4, 5, 6 wickets and win the game. As long as a spinner does that at least once in most series there, I rate him, even if he averages a couple points more than a spinner who hasn't done so in the series.

But Ashwin has been a unique case where he just hasn't done that to win a game yet IMO in SENA. He has gotten close in won games in terms of his contributions but not quite there.

Even if you want to argue he has decent averages in England, that seems beside the point to me.

But if you view it as just an averages games, yes Lyon and Ashwin will seem closer away.

 

[Spark]

Yeah, but wouldn't so had Ashwin? I can totally see Ashwin with his height and variations to be more suited for SENA than someone like Lyon, had he grew up there.

Sure, absolutely, which is why "if ____ had played for ____ instead" comparisons are pointless and shouldn't be made for anything other than idle, meaningless speculation. Particularly for finger spinners who have to change the way they bowl depending on pitch conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not even trying to argue Lyon is equal or even better than Ashwin, frankly I don't care. But it's my strong belief that this forum really underrates Lyon for really dumb superficial stats reason, specifically because it's not appreciated just how remarkable it is what Lyon is able to do on these truly horrendous pitches for finger spin bowlers not named Lyon. Virtually every other spinner who has come down here has gotten absolutely belted to almost comical degrees at one point or another, including Ashwin. Keshav Maharaj, another spinner with a seemingly comparable pedigree to Lyon who could in theory be well suited to Australian pitches was a complete joke last summer.

Absolutely. Lyon has improved remarkably the past two to three years. He is an accomplished all-round spinner and ATVG.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Because we have a fundamental difference in how we evaluate bowlers.

My experience watching cricket since the 90s is that regular good spinners, not ATGs, are expected to be a threat factor in almost every test in the SC.

But in SENA, it's more about just holding one end relatively tight and then when conditions are right on a 4th or 5th day pitch to run through a batting lineup with 4, 5, 6 wickets and win the game. As long as a spinner does that at least once in most series there, I rate him, even if he averages a couple points more than a spinner who hasn't done so in the series.

But Ashwin has been a unique case where he just hasn't done that to win a game yet IMO in SENA. He has gotten close in won games in terms of his contributions but not quite there.

Even if you want to argue he has decent averages in England, that seems beside the point to me.

But if you view it as just an averages games, yes Lyon and Ashwin will seem closer away.

Then why haven't Lyon being one? Why he averages so high SC?? Let's be clear, Lyon in SC is marginally better than Ashwin in SENA. Lyon in SENA is leagues inferior to Ashwin in SC. That's it. Goodnight y'all!

 

[subshakerz]

Sure, absolutely, which is why "if ____ had played for ____ instead" comparisons are pointless and shouldn't be made for anything other than idle, meaningless speculation. Particularly for finger spinners who have to change the way they bowl depending on pitch conditions.

I promoted this idea of switching home countries merely based on their existing records as they bring this overall average difference as if it is a clincher.

 

[subshakerz]

Then why haven't Lyon being one? Why he averages so high SC?? Let's be clear, Lyon in SC is marginally better than Ashwin in SENA. Lyon in SENA is leagues inferior to Ashwin in SC. That's it. Goodnight y'all!

Goodnight

 

[subshakerz]

I don't see why SC performance is being overvalued, it's a big part of the Test world. The reverse could be said about you, with SENA and SC swapped.

If you only can win matches when conditions are set for you, I won't rate you as highly

 

[ma1978]

I'm not even trying to argue Lyon is equal or even better than Ashwin, frankly I don't care. But it's my strong belief that this forum really underrates Lyon for really dumb superficial stats reason, specifically because it's not appreciated just how remarkable it is what Lyon is able to do on these truly horrendous pitches for finger spin bowlers not named Lyon. Virtually every other spinner who has come down here has gotten absolutely belted to almost comical degrees at one point or another, including Ashwin. Keshav Maharaj, another spinner with a seemingly comparable pedigree to Lyon who could in theory be well suited to Australian pitches was a complete joke last summer.

Fair enough. I agree with every word of this, and it’s a pleasure to watch Nathan Lyon bowl in Australia (and a lot of other places)

 

[Xix2565]

If you only can win matches when conditions are set for you, I won't rate you as highly

The conditions aren't that set for him given the records of other players in this period. At least not to the overexaggerated extent you keep on portraying it as. You would know if you did watch the games.

 

[Xix2565]

As long as a spinner does that at least once in most series there, I rate him, even if he averages a couple points more than a spinner who hasn't done so in the series.

This is so bizarre, because it could just as well be down to things outside of the bowler's control no? What if other people play really well or really bad for example? This doesn't seem like a sound criteria that holds water.

 

[OverratedSanity]

rapidly coming to the conclusion that ashwin's three (count 'em, three) good games in australia might just be the most over-indexed test match performances on this website right now

Oh spare me this rubbish . Those three games literally only get brought up when people refuse to admit he's been any good in Australia.

And those "threecount em three" good games are more than basically any overseas spinner has managed in Australia in over a decade. Nonsensical to underplay it. Now that you've joined forces with the deniers, I'll be even more obnoxious in my praise of his performance on that tour.

Ashwin overall doesn't even have good stats in Australia. Yet Lyon in those same games he's played in Australia vs us averages something like 45. Same pitches, same games, and Ashwin has outperformed him several times.

This is coming from someone who rates Lyon on the same tier as ashwin BTW.

 

[Xix2565]

Oh spare me with this rubbish . Those games literally only get brought up when people refuse to admit he's been any good in Australia.

And those three good games are more than basically any overseas spinner gas managed in Australia in over a decade. Nonsensical to underplay it. Now that you've joined forces with the deniers, I'll be even more obnoxious in my praise of his performance on that tour.

Ash could have gotten a 5fer on Day 1 at MCG 2020 if the umpire didn't overestimate bounce, tbh. Siraj took those wickets for his debut tax.

 

[subshakerz]

Oh spare me this rubbish . Those three games literally only get brought up when people refuse to admit he's been any good in Australia.

And those " count em three" three good games are more than basically any overseas spinner has managed in Australia in over a decade. Nonsensical to underplay it. Now that you've joined forces with the deniers, I'll be even more obnoxious in my praise of his performance on that tour.

Ashwin overall doesn't even have good stats in Australia. Yet Lyon in those same games he's played in Australia vs us averages something like 45. Same pitches, same games, and Ashwin has outperformed him several times.

This is coming from someone who rates Lyon on the same tier as ashwin BTW.

While I admit Ashwin had a good series, those tests are definitely overplayed as if it was some ATG performance. I recall folks saying it was better than Kumble's 12-fer in 2004 for example.

Lyon himself in those 2014 and 2018 series in which Ashwin played had better match performances against India which nobody brings up.